The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Good afternoon, all. Before we begin, I want to make a brief statement.

Before we begin today's proceedings, I'd like to make some points concerning the debate surrounding the 20 mph regulations that came into force over the weekend. Overnight, I've become aware of several Members—myself included—receiving abusive and threatening messages on social media, e-mail and telephone, due to their stance on this topic. Our staff have had to deal with much of this this morning. Whilst it's encouraging to see unprecedented interest in our Petitions Committee and its work, we all have a duty to ensure that public debate in Wales is measured, dignified and respectful. For us in this Chamber, that means setting the tone for how we expect others to express their views, whatever their stance on this matter or any other matter, and that we do that in a way that does not demean or undermine any individual. I've received representations from one Member about the conduct of another Member during yesterday's proceedings, and have corresponded with both individuals accordingly. I will conclude by urging Members to bear all of this in mind when articulating their views in the Chamber, and, in turn, influencing how others behave outside this Chamber.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy

I'll move on now to the first item of business today, and that's the questions to the economy Minister. The first question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister and to be asked by Sam Rowlands.

North Wales's Heritage Rail Sector

Sam Rowlands AS: 1. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure suitable coal supplies for north Wales’s heritage rail sector? OQ59933

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank Sam Rowlands for that question, and say that we do greatly value our heritage railways? But, all sectors of our society must play their part in addressing the climate emergency. We would encourage the industry to work with the Welsh Government to develop transition plans in line with the net-zero targets.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for that initial response. As you say, the support for the heritage rail sector is welcome, because, of course, across the United Kingdom, the heritage railways are worth around £0.5 billion to the economy. You'll be aware of some significant heritage railways in my patch, in north Wales—the Ffestiniog and Welsh highland railway partially running through the region, attracting around 200,000 visitors a year. And there is, of course, also the Llangollen to Corwen railway, which generates around £8.5 million for the local economy. I must declare a personal interest there—my father volunteers from time to time on that particular railway and, I must say, always does a fantastic job, I'm sure. Wales, of course, is rich with coal that would be perfect for use in the heritage rail sector. It's high quality and burns more efficiently than other types of coal, and, of course, does not need to be transported very far at all. Instead, at the moment, the sector is now having to look at importing coal from other countries—from the other side of the world, at times—with some of them having questionable human rights. And I want to stress to you, Deputy Minister, the money generated and the jobs supported by the heritage rail sector, but all of this relies on the use of coal at the moment. So, I wonder what you can do to ensure that coal from the United Kingdom can be used for this purpose, instead of having to import it from overseas, which will risk having a much worse environmental impact.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I thank Sam Rowlands for those very important points in his supplementary question? And, again, can I reiterate that we have long been supportive of our heritage railways, and we do absolutely understand the economic value of these important cultural and heritage assets? We've invested in many of them, in supporting their presence and their ability to continue. In fact, I was on the Llangollen railway not so long ago—I had a journey along the Llangollen railway. And I'm very pleased that the local volunteers—maybe your dad's one of them—keep me regularly informed on the development and the work that's going on there. And in fact, I've got one in my own constituency, of course—the Brecon mountain railway. So, I do know the value of them, absolutely. But we are aware of the challenges that the sector faces, for all the reasons that you've set out, and that they do currently rely on the extraction and consumption of coal products. So, our efforts as a Government now are focused on making the transition to net-zero emissions a just transition. So, we are looking to get the heritage railways to move away from the use of coal. Because one of the things that I would have to say is that the heritage sector alone can't sustain the remaining coal mines that we have in Britain, including in my own constituency—the opencast mine of Ffos-y-frân. So, what we want to do is encourage the heritage rail industry to work with Government to develop those transition plans. And there's a growing body of evidence suggesting that the sector could reduce its reliance on fossil fuels through continued efforts to trial alternative renewable fuels, and we've got examples of biomass logs, wood briquettes, biodiesel and, of course, the use of hydrogen fuel cell engines. So, what I would say, in conclusion, is that Welsh Government absolutely stands ready to support the sector through this transition, and I would encourage heritage railways to engage with my officials, to discuss this and to identify what funding might be available to help them into that transition.

Regional Aid Programmes

Ken Skates AC: 2. How is the Welsh Government working with the UK Government to deliver post-Brexit regional aid programmes? OQ59911

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. Despite these programmes operating in devolved areas, the Welsh Government was denied a meaningful role in their design and implementation by the UK Government. We are working with our stakeholders in Wales to minimise the impact of what is now a fragmented and vastly reduced funding landscape.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Minister. And I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was extremely concerned to read the recent Senedd committee report that stated that Wales's future economic success will be jeopardised if the UK Government doesn't engage and work with the Welsh Government in this area. And the UK Government's so-called levelling-up process has left Wales with less say over crucial funds, and it's also undermined, as you said, the devolution settlement by centralising decisions in Westminster, and we're now more than £1 billion worse off as a result of the UK Government's failure to meet its promise to replace previous EU funds in full.Minister, would you be able to tell the Senedd whether you find the UK Government any more co-operative today than when you became economy Minister in 2021?

Vaughan Gething AC: The picture is varied. From the time when I became the economy Minister to now, in some areas, we have reached pragmatic conclusions where we've been able to strike agreement. Free ports is one example. However, in others, we've been met with indifference, and, in some areas, outright hostility. And the challenge for this approach is that, actually, in seeking to have a fight and not to seek an answer, we will, I think, end up with poor value for public money, and we will, as the Senedd committee has said, jeopardise the economic future for Wales.
We have always recognised that there is an area for us to co-operate and take pragmatic choices with the UK Government. What we won't do, though, is willingly accept a future determined by the UK Government in areas that are devolved to the Welsh Government and to this Senedd, and we'll continue to stand up and make the case that Wales should have not been left over £1 billion short, the Conservative manifesto should not have been breached in the flagrant way it has been, and we'll continue to stand up for Wales and argue for a better future, which I believe will come if there is a UK Labour Government after the next election.

Paul Davies AC: As has already been mentioned, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee published a report last week following our inquiry into post-EU regional development funding. And the committee has made it very clear that for development funding to work for the people of Wales, the UK and Welsh Governments have to work together much more effectively. Now, the committee has recommended that the Welsh and UK Governments should undertake a review of whether the different elements of the shared prosperity fund should be delivered at a local, regional or at an all-Wales level, based on what works best. So, Minister, do you share this view, and, if so, what representations have you made to the UK Government regarding this specific matter?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, the starting point is the UK Government need to acknowledge this is a devolved area. They need to acknowledge we're not simply supplicants. They need to acknowledge that we have a decision-making role in the Welsh Government, as indeed does this Parliament, and that simply has not happened. And the challenge for us is: are the UK Government prepared to be serious and willing partners in the future of Wales, or are they determined to do things to Wales that don't respect the mandate of every one of the 60 Members in this place, not just those people that stand in the Government?
I would like to see something where there can be a pragmatic approach, where UK Government levers add to what we're able to do, where we carry on with the agenda we already set out in our regional investment framework, and working with UK-wide frameworks, and also, at the same time, having regional partners where there is a sharing of power and responsibility to improve the economy of Wales. But that requires a fundamental change in the UK Government that will not happen with this current version of the UK Government, and that's why—and it's one of the many reasons—I look forward to the election of a UK Labour Government that will restore powers and resources to this Parliament and this Government.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Chair of the committee for the report. Paul Davies has always led the committee with a determination to hold governments to account and he should be congratulated on his leadership there. But the fundamental issue here, of course, is the collapse of Brexit, and the collapse of Brexit has already meant that we've seen European standards adopted for manufacturing here; UK standards dropped. The UK Government can't even implement its own agreement in terms of border checks and we've seen that the UK Government now associates itself with Horizon, which means that the European Union now will be determining the future of research capacity and research priorities in Wales. And all of that I welcome, and I welcome the approach that the Welsh Government has taken over the years to this.
Now, I will be joining the national rejoin the EU march on Saturday. Now, I won't expect to see the Minister on the other end of my banner, but what I will say—[Interruption.] You're very welcome to join me, you're very welcome to join me—both you Sams, were there last time. I know Paul was there as well—[Laughter.] But the point I was looking to make, Minister, was that the great Brexit robbery of Wales has fundamentally undermined our economy at a time when Brexit itself has undermined our productivity and our competitivity. Minister, will you and the Welsh Government continue to work towards ensuring that investment takes place in constituencies such as mine—one of the poorest in the country, and which has benefited enormously from European funding in the past—to ensure that we continue to prioritise some of the poorest and most deprived people in this country.

Vaughan Gething AC: I thank the Member for his question. As he knows, I have previously been on marches in London when the question was very alive about an alternative to having the actual deal put before people. [Inaudible.]—helped people to get to London for that. I won't be joining him on Saturday. I have pre-existing commitments, both being a touchline dad, as my son takes the great and glorious path with Inter Penarth, and, indeed, with other colleagues in this room, I look forward to taking part in the UK Co-operative Party conference online as well.
On your broader point, I think it's important to recognise that the Horizon association deal is good. It's good news for Wales, good news for the UK, good news for our institutions. I was with the board of UK Research and Innovation, who were having the board meeting in Cardiff last night and today, and they've been visiting both Cardiff and Swansea universities and what they're already doing in the research field, and everybody welcomes the association with Horizon. If it hadn't happened at this point, it may not have happened, actually, given the length of time of the programme.
And on your point around Brexit, it's pretty bewildering to have Lord Frost, the chief negotiator, at one point saying it's the greatest deal ever, then to say it's a terrible deal and it's all the Europeans' fault, and then to say we never expected to keep our version of the deal, and they intended to collapse it. Now, that's terrible, and regardless of the party that you stand in, actually, from the UK's point of view and our place within it, if you're going to highlight that you're not going to negotiate in good faith in international agreements, that is no basis for the certainty we need and the investment we want to see come into our economy, as well as seeing Welsh and UK firms having opportunities in other parts of the world. So, we need to do what we say we have signed up to, and that includes your point around investing in Valleys communities and other parts of Wales. We're committed to doing that. In fact, it's part of the work I've actually been undertaking with the capital region, and I know I've an outstanding commitment to the Member for the Cynon Valley and the group that she chairs to have a further conversation on what exactly we are doing, because I am determined that happens in all of the work that we do in the Government not just to see growth, but to see growth that actually levels up our country with the fairer, greener Wales we actually want to be.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The first this afternoon is to be answered by the Deputy Minister. I call the Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Tom Giffard.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Deputy Minister, the most recent statistics on visitor numbers here in Wales present great cause for concern. According to the international passenger survey data released by Visit Britain, there were 33 per cent fewer inbound visitors in Wales in 2022 than in 2019. The amount international visitors spent also dropped by 24 per cent, from £515 million in 2019 to £391 million in 2022. That's extremely concerning for a sector that provides one in seven jobs in Wales—that’s over 150,000 livelihoods at stake. So, do you share my concerns about the decline in Welsh visitor numbers and what actions are the Welsh Government taking to address that decline?

Dawn Bowden AC: Well, I think—and thank you, Tom, for that question—you've been quite selective, actually, in your assessment of the situation. We had a debate on this not so long ago in this Chamber and we went through all of these statistics and I explained in some detail then that the vast majority of Welsh tourism is domestic tourism and it accounts for 90 per cent of visitors to Wales.
And, actually, what Visit Wales is now doing is looking at how we can attract more inward visitors. So, we are well aware that our inward visitors—our international visitors into Wales—is something we need to do more work on. We are doing that and, as I said in the debate last week with Janet Finch-Saunders, Visit Wales, as a result of their campaign to do just that, actually won the World Media Awards' grand prix prize, beating other major brands into a cocked hat around the development of that campaign to attract more inward visitors.So, I would like to think that, as time goes on, that campaign will bear some fruit. We're also working with our colleagues in Manchester to ensure that we get some linkages across from the north-west of England as well. So, we're not sat on our hands doing nothing about that, but I do think we need to be very, very clear about what these figures tell us, and they don't tell us that Wales's tourism industry is going down the pan.

Tom Giffard AS: What they do tell us, Deputy Minister, is that there are fewer people visiting Wales. The statistics are very clear about that, and I'm worried that we've got a Welsh Government that's more concerned about the awards it wins than the people it brings through the door to enjoy their time staying here in Wales. And obviously, cost will be one of those factors, but one of the costs the Welsh Government can control is the introduction of a tourism tax.
We know that there are areas in Wales that struggle with lots of tourists on busy days, but most are very often, at least in my part of the world, filled with day visitors rather then people staying overnight. The problem with the tourism tax, as proposed by the Welsh Government, is that it only targets those overnight visitors, when they spend up to 14 times more in the local economy and the tax does nothing for day visitors. So, what the Welsh Government is proposing here is actively undermining the very people who we want to be staying in Wales.
But if you're going to bring in a new tax like this, it's important that you bring the industry along with you, but that doesn't seem to have happened either. Important stakeholder groups, like the Professional Association of Self-Caterers and the Wales Tourism Alliance have opposed the tax. I know, Minister, that you even visited Bluestone, one of the premier tourism destinations in Wales, and I was lucky to go there over the summer with my colleague Sam Kurtz MS. But just a few days after your visit in May, Bluestone itself came out against the tourism tax, arguing that it would harm business. So, I'm concerned, Minister, and do you share my concerns that you've now lost the confidence of the tourism sector in Wales about the value that this tourism tax could provide?

Dawn Bowden AC: Well, I thank you, Tom, for that second question, and I did wonder how long it would take you to get to the tourism levy, but let me just rewind and revisit your assumption about visitor figures. Between April and December 2021 and April and December 2022, there was an increase of 13 per cent in the volume of trips taken in Wales, and an increase of 35 per cent in that same period in 2022. There's been an increase in spend per trip across all of the GB nations and we saw an increase from January to March 2023, with estimated figures showing that there was something in the region of 1.74 million trips taken and a spend of £341 million in Wales in the first three months of 2023. So, far from being a problem for us at the moment, I think we are seeing some very positive figures.
I met with the Visitor Economy Forum just yesterday in fact, and they were far more upbeat and positive about what is happening in Wales, I'm afraid, than you are, Tom, and than your party is. And I would reiterate what I said to you in the debate last week: if you are going to continue to talk Wales down, what you will continue to do is drive visitors away from Wales and we're doing the complete opposite.
Now, in terms of the tourism levy, you can keep banging on about the tourism levy as much as you like, but I will keep repeating what I've said to you previously: the tourism levy was a manifesto commitment of ours and we're applying that manifesto commitment. We are talking regularly with the visitor economy sector, who by and large are now accepting of the position, and are working with us to develop it. And for you to keep going on about the tourism levy as harming tourism in Wales is really nonsense; it hasn't even been introduced yet, so it can't be having any impact on tourism in Wales.
And again I will say as I've said before, and I know that other colleagues in the Chamber have said the same: like many colleagues, I was fortunate enough to have a European holiday over the summer, and I paid a tourism tax. I paid a tourism tax for every night I stayed in Italy. I was at the Rugby World Cup the weekend before last: I paid a tourism tax in Bordeaux; I paid a tourism tax in Paris. Not once did I say, 'I'm never going to go to these places again because they're levying a tourism tax.'
The question of daytime levies is not currently on our agenda; we are looking at overnight visitors, which is the most popular model, but these things are always open for consideration at any given point in time.

Tom Giffard AS: Doesn't it say it all about the ambition of this Government that they're bragging about an increase compared to the early stages of 2021, a time where they closed down the tourism economy here in Wales, and what we've seen since then is a modest increase since that time? [Interruption.] Now, listen: I understand the need for COVID—. I understand the need for COVID—[Interruption.] I understand the need for COVID restrictions, and it's very unbecoming of the Minister—[Interruption.] I understand the need for COVID restrictions, as many of us did, but to compare those figures to a time when the tourism economy in Wales was literally shut down by the Government shows the lack of ambition that this Government's got for our tourism economy in Wales.
We already know that there is widespread opposition to this tax. We're nearly two and a half years now into this Senedd term and we still don't have any clarity on exactly how this tourism tax is set to be used. We've heard comrades in Plaid Cymru call for this money to be spent on free school meals. Now, the merits of that are for another day, but they don't exactly match up with your stated aim that the money would be spent in the tourism sector alone. I know the First Minister yesterday enjoyed giving me a one-word 'yes' or 'no' answer, so I'm happy if you want to give me the same clarity. Will you give a cast-iron guarantee that when this tax is introduced, councils will have to spend it on improving their tourism offer, and they won't be able to replace their existing tourism budgets with the proceeds of this tax?

Dawn Bowden AC: I think the point is—. Let's deal with your first point first: the first point first is that some of these figures are compared to 2019, not 2020, the visitor figures, and they're comparing with 2021 and 2022, and 2023, which is after lockdown, and it's a year-on-year comparison. So, it generally helps if you get your facts right before you stand on your feet and talk about stuff like that.
But in terms of the tourism levy and how it will be spent, what we have said is that absolutely we will be working with the sector to develop how best that levy is spent, and part of the discussion that we are having with them is how we could look at ring-fencing the levy to do the kinds of things that you were talking about. I see no circumstances whereby a tourism levy would not be used for anything other than improving the tourism offer that is available in any particular area, and mitigating the impact on communities where those are there. But those decisions are still yet to be taken because we are still having the discussion with the tourism sector, as you consistently tell us that we should be doing, and that is what we are doing. And when we have reached an agreement with the tourism sector on exactly how this is going to play out, then of course, there will be a statement brought to this Chamber and you will hear about it first.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: I think it's fair to say that 2023 has been a fairly tough one in terms of news for the economy Minister. We had the announcement at Tata on Friday, roughly 3,000 jobs potentially at risk; 2 Sisters in Llangefni, over 700 jobs lost; Avara Foods, Abergavenny, 400 jobs lost; Tillery Valley Foods, 250 jobs lost; and Biomet in Bridgend, 540 jobs at risk. This, of course, against a backdrop of the longest squeeze on wages since the Napoleonic wars, according to the Trades Union Congress, with young people unable to buy their own homes, unable to afford rent, and families unable to put food on the table or heat their homes. I've raised several times with the economy Minister my concerns, my very real concerns, about young people considering a future elsewhere, and I genuinely believe that we are facinglarge numbers of young people leaving Wales or ditching ambitions altogether. We know, for example, that both the Australian and New Zealand Governments are targeting ads at young people. I've seen those ads pop up on my own social media over the summer. Has the Government woken up to this, and where does he see things going in the next six months?

Vaughan Gething AC: We haven't needed to be woken up, because it's been very clear since I became the economy Minister that it's part of the economic mission about young people planning a successful future here in Wales, both young people from Wales and those people who want to come to Wales. If you think about where we are now, it's a city that is a younger city than London, overall. It's got a significant graduate population. That's part of the reason why lots of businesses are looking to locate here in Cardiff, and it's also part of the reason why there is a higher business growth for new businesses in Cardiff than in other parts of the UK.
And that story is one that I want to see not just told in the Cardiff region, but across Wales as well. That's why I made the points I was making in earlier questions about a partnership with regions across Wales, to understand where there are distinct opportunities and how we get behind those opportunities with partners in those regions. Those are both businesses and wider stakeholders as well, and of course local authorities with their regional partners. So, you'll see different opportunities in north-west and north-east Wales to what you'll see in south-east Wales or, indeed, west Wales as well. That's what I'm keen that we do.
And, actually, the more recent data does show that there has been some tightening and a slight rise in unemployment in Wales. But, actually, we still do well compared to UK figures. I know there have been really difficult events. I'm very well aware of the challenges of a number of the firms that the Member has raised, but we are still facing a position where there are still jobs within the economy looking for people to fill them. My concern is how we get not just more jobs, but better jobs for our people, and that's why I want to equip people with the skills that they need for the future.

Luke Fletcher AS: Of course, he mentions Cardiff; there's more to Wales than just Cardiff, and I recall a Welsh Government publication highlighting low wages in Cardiff as a reason to invest in Cardiff.
Now, on keeping young people here, there's no better place to start than with the green economy. If we think about the need to transition to a greener economy, the need for green skills will only grow. Now, where there are job losses, the ReAct programme is understandably the go-to for the Minister, but I would be interested in the success rate of ReAct in finding new jobs for those using the programme at the same level of wages and workplace conditions as the jobs that they left. And how is the programme reacting to the challenge of net zero? Of those new jobs found, how many are actually in the green economy?
Beyond ReAct, it's proving difficult to fully understand the Government's strategy for embedding green skills within the Welsh workforce. Further education institutions still remain unsure as to what the Government means when it talks about green skills. Tata has shown us, hasn't it? It has shown us that a just transition is no longer a concept. It's here now, and Tata is just the tip of the iceberg.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, let's start with the first point the Member made in response. I don't think beating up Cardiff is a sensible way to go about trying to grow the economy. And actually, in my response, I didn't just talk about Cardiff. There are challenges and opportunities in the north-east, north-west, south-east Wales and west Wales as well, and we're keen to work with partners to see those realised.
On the challenge about how we provide greater and more effective employability support, you'll know from the employability and skills plan that we're looking to gather together the different interventions we have. That requires us, again, to work with different partners to look at what we're doing directly here in the Government, what local authorities are doing and, indeed, to try to understand if there's going to be a change in direction from the Department for Work and Pensions. We want as coherent an offer as possible for people who are needing to reskill.
And on your challenge about whether further education colleges understand what we're doing, I don't think that's an accurate reflection of where FE colleges are. It's certainly not the conversation I've had with them. But, actually, in the net-zero skills plan, we set out that we're going to need to have a clearer understanding for different sectors about what the skills needs are going to be, how much of that we can anticipate now, how much of that we need to build, and to do that across sectors that have significant emissions challenges but also areas where there are opportunities. And as that goes through, you can expect to see more of the detail in that work through the rest of this year and into the next one.
I mean what I say about the future of our economy: more jobs and better jobs to take advantage of the opportunities that arise and not to wait for things to happen to us. That's why I'm keen on areas where Wales really can be strong, whether that's offshore wind technology, advanced manufacturing, compound semiconductors, or even new nuclear technology in the future as well. I want to see us take advantage of those and have real priorities to give people that realistic hope that you can plan a really positive future here in Wales, and we want young people to stay here as well as to come here to be part of our future story.

Question 3 [OQ59927] is withdrawn.

High Streets in Islwyn

Rhianon Passmore AC: 4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support the economic vitality of high streets in Islwyn? OQ59925

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. We're working hard to deliver our programmes and initiatives to support high streets, including in Islwyn. For example, our Transforming Towns programme is providing £125 million to local authorities over three years and is targeted at addressing the decline in some of our town and city centres.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, Minister. On Sunday, Wilko's Blackwood store closed its doors for the final time, following the company's financial collapse. In a capitalist economy, ultimately it is private business and the marketplace that dictates how business is transacted and which businesses succeed. Paul Butterworth, CEO of Chambers Wales, was recently quoted as saying:
'The retail picture...reflects the state of high street challenges in every region of Wales and the UK...one in six high street businesses in Wales have ceased trading, equating to a drop in 16% of Welsh high street businesses no longer trading.'
Minister, this is often coupled with high-visibility landmarks, such as our national banks, building societies and post offices, closing down their physical branches and doors on the British high street. This is a fact, and it's from our experts, and obviously the party opposite are allergic to some of that.
Minister, Blackwood is one of Gwent's major towns, and BBC Wales Today came to the town to analyse the impact of the COVID pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis on retail. Labour's Caerphilly County Borough Council continues to do all it can to support Blackwood high street, recently supporting a family summer festival in Blackwood, aimed to help high-street trade, and on just one day of this initiative, 8,000 people packed out Blackwood high street—a direct result. Minister, what further actions and representations can this Welsh Government take, and what is the Welsh Government's ambition to fulfil the people's desire for our high streets to remain a vibrant, living, sustainable marketplace for communities across Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the follow-up question. Our ambitions for high streets in Wales are set out both in our retail action plan and in the town centre position statement. What should give us more positivity about what is possible is that in a number of areas that are analogous to Blackwood, you can see high streets and town centres that have been revitalised. That's both about understanding what the mission of that town centre is, the size and the scale of it, and how to have a balance between chains but also independent retailers, and that mix of housing, retail, planning and local transport, to enable all of that to happen. That's why I'm proud that we have put the money in that we have into 'town centre first', and it's also why, alongside our Transforming Towns programme, we continue to provide a rates support package over the next two financial years, which means we're investing £460 million into those businesses.
The challenge, then, is about how we persuade people about the changes that have been made to their lives, and how people have made permanent changes in their world of work. This actually could be a good thing for a number of our smaller town centres, with a balance between home work and hybrid work with people undertaking more of their lives in their local centre and not constantly travelling to much larger population centres. There's much that's still there in flux, but we'll carry on working with businesses, their organisations and, indeed, local authorities. I think Caerphilly have a good track record in wanting to support their local businesses, and we'll work alongside them to do just that.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, in May this year, as you just mentioned to my colleague Rhianon Passmore, you published the Welsh Government's retail action plan. Some of its aims, as you mentioned, include reducing town centre vacant premises and boosting footfall in high streets and town centres. Earlier this month it was revealed that one in six shops on Welsh high streets are indeed empty. Figures show that the rate of empty shops in Wales rose from 16.5 per cent to 17 per cent in the second quarter of 2023. It was also revealed that Newport, my home town and part of my region of South East Wales, actually had more empty units than any other city in the United Kingdom. So, Minister, given what I've just outlined, just how successful has this action plan been so far? Has it hit its KPIs, also known as key performance indicators? And are you confident that this plan is actually going to work? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think the retail action plan will make a difference. It's been designed together with the industry and the Welsh Retail Consortium, together with trade unions, led by USDAW, and that's meant that we've got a shared view on what the future could and should look like. I think trying to pronounce on the success of the plan months after it's been launched is not a sensible exercise if you want to be serious about the future of our town centres. We do know that the challenges around the cost of living and the cost of doing business, and the challenges around inflation, have led to a number of businesses not being able to survive and others that are not as optimistic as they would have been at the start of the year. But it also reinforces why we need to carry on with that partnership approach and to recognise, as indeed Rhianon Passmore did, that local authorities have a key role and a key interest in seeing those town centres continue to be successful. That will involve, for some of them, remodelling what they do, the size and the scale of them, to make sure they're still vibrant. Because I think it also goes into a sense of place—a sense of place about where you're from and what you're proud of. And it's also why, for example, a range of other services will continue to be important. For example, the continued investment that my colleague the health Minister makes in high-street optometry will be really important for maintaining footfall in our town and city centres. So, it's more than just one department—it's a whole-Government approach, and we look forward to working with our partners to see that success in towns right across Wales.

Gilestone Farm

James Evans AS: 5. Will the Minister provide an update on the Gilestone Farm lease negotiations? OQ59915

Vaughan Gething AC: Lease negotiations regarding the future of Gilestone Farm are ongoing. The Welsh Government does not disclose the details of confidential commercial discussions whilst they are ongoing.

James Evans AS: Thank you, Minister, for your answer. As part of the ongoing negotiations, you've said on a number of occasions in the Chamber that you will be consulting with the community. I held a public meeting on 8 June, which you and your officials declined to attend. I subsequently wrote to you on 13 June with a list of questions from members of my community with genuine concerns about the proposals. I chased up for a reply to that letter on 12 July, and I'm yet, to date, to receive a reply to that letter. Minister, it's not good enough waiting three months and a week to get a reply from your department on a matter that you have promised proactive engagement on. So, can you please tell me today when am I going to receive a reply to that letter? Or shall I go and tell my constituents this is yet again another broken promise by the economy Minister on his offer of proactive engagement with my communities? Diolch, Llywydd.

Vaughan Gething AC: Actually, my officials have continued to engage with both the community council and the local community. It's simply not true to claim that there has been no engagement with the local community.
When it comes to the public meeting you held, of course, I was extraordinarily disappointed that claims were made at that meeting that you were only aware that Welsh Government officials and I would not be attending on the day of the meeting. It was very clear in the answer the First Minister gave in the Chamber to you, and in the conversation we had outside the Chamber, that I would not be attending. There's a point here that goes back to comments made by the Llywydd at the start of this session about the nature of the debate we have, conducting it with respect, but also with some integrity. And I hope that you correct the misleading and inaccurate impression that was given.
We will carry on engaging with the local community. We'll carry on being honest with the community about what those plans mean. We'll carry on having a negotiation, because I think this is another example of—. If we can have a successful agreement with a company that is a strong brand—Green Man has a value of over £10 million with its annual event—and if we can secure more of their operation of a different type at this site, then I believe it will be part, again, in this part of Wales, of giving people the opportunity to plan a successful economic future within their local community that works with people in that community, and gets away from some of the scaremongering that has gone on about the potential proposal. I look forward to what I hope will be a successful conclusion to those negotiations.

Post-EU Funds

Vikki Howells AC: 6. What assessment has the Minister made of whether post-EU funds are meeting the needs of Welsh communities? OQ59928

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. Post-EU funding schemes are underfunded by at least £1.1 billion, and have been beset by UK Government delays and chaotic implementation. This has put local authorities under huge pressure. This is now damaging key sectors of our economy, resulting in the closure of vital business, innovation and skills programmes, and directly costing jobs for Wales.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. You'll be aware that the economy committee has just completed our inquiry into post-EU funding, and found that Wales's economic success is at risk if a new approach to allocating these resources isn't adopted. We've called for greater involvement from the Welsh Government in their planning and roll-out, but, as you will be only too aware, this is something that the UK Government seem hellbent on preventing. Keir Starmer has promised that an incoming Westminster Labour Government would return powers over this funding to Wales. Do you agree with me that that's the best way of ensuring this funding is used to meet the needs of communities, such as the one that I represent in Cynon Valley?

Vaughan Gething AC: It's absolutely the right approach to take. Those powers should never have been stolen from Wales in the first place. We should never have received the funding cut that directly broke Conservative manifesto promises. And that is in line with what the cross-party committee has reported here, and, indeed, cross-party committees within the House of Commons itself. We want to have a partnership with a responsible UK Government where devolved powers are exercised here, and, where we can, in partnership with UK Government levers as well. We want a partnership with the regions here in Wales to make sure we carry on delivering real economic benefit and investment in a landscape that is coherent, and not deliberately splintered and undermining in the way that it has been so far. That would actually provide not just responsibilities for the Government here, but also make sure that scrutiny rests where it should do within this Parliament for the Wales-wide programmes that we should have a say in, and indeed working alongside our partners in local government.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Minister, we need to be cautious not to look back on the days of EU funding through rose-tinted glasses. Funding streams such as the rural development programme were no guarantee of money being spent efficiently or in the right place. This can be evidenced through the Wales Audit Office findings from 2020 that the Welsh Government had not taken appropriate action to ensure value for money on nearly half of the awards made. Whilst there is scope for improving the shared prosperity fund, would you agree that there is a positive future ahead for post-EU funding, as demonstrated by the evidence gathered by the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee's inquiry? For example, Labour's Monmouthshire council stated, and I quote, that UK Government officials were 'very supportive', and had 'good lines of communication', and Plaid-run Gwynedd Council stated that they had developed a relationship that is 'quite good' with the UK Government. Diolch, Llywydd.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think you'll find, if you read the whole view from local government, they're certainly not supportive of the UK Government coming in and running programmes directly, circumventing the Welsh Government, and, indeed, reducing the funds available. There's always a challenge here when Conservative Members say they want to celebrate the shared prosperity fund. They never acknowledge the fact that Wales has been short-changed by over £1 billion, and I refuse to join the Welsh Tories in celebrating that money being taken away from Wales. When you look at lessons that have been learnt, and if you go and look at some of the work that Paul Davies has done in the past as well, we have learnt from the different iterations of European funds. What's actually happened is, rather than going towards a more strategic approach that we chose to take in the last round of European funds, the shared prosperity fund is actually an annualised pepper-pot approach that undoes all of the work that we had done through learning from the first round of Objective 1, as it then was. This will lead to a poorer spend of a smaller sum of money. I actually think that when you come back to look at this objectively, there will not be a great deal for you to be proud of in the way that the money has not just been taken away from us, but then been respent in a much poorer way, for much poorer value for your community as well as mine.

The Impact of 20 mph Speed Limits

Natasha Asghar AS: 7. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact that 20mph speed limits will have on the Welsh economy? OQ59914

Vaughan Gething AC: The largest economic benefit is that there will be fewer people killed or seriously injured from road collisions. The change is also expected to strengthen local economies through increased footfall and could lead to higher land values and retail spending.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. This week, Labour's money-making blanket 20 mph speed limit scheme has come into force, and the public's concerns firmly remain, with nearly 270,000 people signing a petition to have the policy reversed. I've heard from many businesses over the last few weeks and days in the run-up to the scheme's introduction, including a parcel delivery firm. They have been looking into the extra costs they face as a result of this Government's unwanted 20 mph—

I can't hear the Member, so the Minister may be struggling as well. I do need to hear the Member's point.

Alun Davies AC: [Inaudible.]

Natasha Asghar AS: You'd love that, wouldn't you, Alun Davies?

Can the Member carry on—thank you—and be allowed to carry on?

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you so much. Minister, I've heard from many businesses over the last few weeks and days in the run-up to the scheme's introduction, including a parcel delivery firm. They've been looking into the extra costs that they face as a result of this Government's unwanted 20 mph speed limit project. Taking into account things like extra maintenance costs and the impact slower speeds will have, the total for this one company comes to £1.6 million. And this business is not alone; taxi drivers are extremely fearful for the loss of income, as they expect to see a drop in the number of trips that they can make in a day. If the Welsh Government continues to ignore residents' calls and refuses to reverse this disastrous policy, will you look at creating a hardship fund to compensate businesses for the loss of income and to cover their extra costs? It is incredibly unfair that hard-working businesses are being made to suffer as a result of this policy, which they did not want, do not want, and are being forced into by Labour Ministers here in Cardiff Bay.

Vaughan Gething AC: As the Member knows, this is not a blanket ban. It's always unfortunate when people make knowingly untruthful statements. It is not a blanket ban. It is also the delivery of a manifesto commitment that people in Wales did vote for. People voted for this in our manifesto. I note that the Conservative leader's poll, on his own Twitter account, actually demonstrated that some people are actually quite pleased with this policy. I don't accept the veracity of the figures for a policy that has been implemented for just a handful of days now. I look forward to a longer term review and, of course, we are committed to reviewing the impact of the new proposals that have been introduced. Local authorities will review what's happened; I look forward to the input. And I can honestly say, as a parent, I'm much happier for my son to be out and about on his bike and moving around our roads with a change in speed limit. I think it'll make a big difference to how all of us see the future, and, actually, not just the health outcomes that we have been able to assess, but to think about what it means, if you listen to a range of our teachers, who have said, 'The children walking or cycling to school—they're more likely to be alert and active, ready to learn at the start of the day.' There are longer term health benefits, and, actually, those health benefits have a real impact on our economic future as well. I think we're doing the right thing, and I think, in a year or two's time, people will look back and wonder who on earth thought this was a bad idea.

Improving Productivity in the Business Sector

Peter Fox AS: 8. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve productivity within the Welsh business sector? OQ59930

Vaughan Gething AC: Our Business Wales service provides businesses with access to a range of information, guidance and support, both financial and non-financial, to consider their productivity and skills. This is supported through a range of our skills and employability programmes that can offer direct support to businesses.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister. Minister, the NatWest business activity index paints a very concerning picture for Wales, as the number of outstanding businesses in private firms is on a downward trajectory. Despite the data highlighting an increase in output, the devil really is in the detail, with this increase being a result of backlog clearing, as opposed to increasing new work. However, to get to the root cause of this issue of productivity, we need to look no further than this year's business barometer, which highlights that 75 per cent of Welsh business leaders are experiencing skills shortages, which is directly impacting on productivity. Minister, you touched on skills, but what urgent action is being taken to improve that skills shortage in Wales, to prevent things getting worse here?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, actually, it's partly about the take-up of the programmes we already have, as well as going back to earlier questions about areas for future growth as well. And it's why a partnership with businesses really does matter, both between local authorities and the individual businesses within their area, as well as larger organisations bringing different business groups together. So, the challenge on skills is something that we understand. It's also why the confused landscape, with the policy intervention from the UK Government, has undermined what was a much clearer picture. It's made it less strategic as well. I want to see that knitted back together in a way that is genuinely strategic and gives greater certainty to businesses about what we're doing.
We do of course have good examples of where productivity has increased, and, indeed, people who live in the Member's constituency will have benefited from that. There's the business productivity enhancement programme that's taking place within the south-east Wales region, and in particular centred around Tech Valleys, there are at least 12 firms in Blaenau Gwent, Torfaen and Caerphilly that have had investments to help reskill their workforce, and a number of those firms will have, as I say, people living in the Member's constituency. The challenge is always the scale of what we're able to do, broader confidence in the economy, and the certainty of what we're able to do and not having a confused picture for businesses to actually be able to select from and understand the support that is available to them.

And finally, question 9, Llyr Gruffydd.

Support for Wilko Workers

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 9. What support is the Welsh Government providing for workers following the closure of Wilko branches in North Wales? OQ59939

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question.

Vaughan Gething AC: This is of course extremely disappointing news, which will be extraordinarily concerning for staff at Wilko. We're working with a range of partners, including Working Wales and Jobcentre Plus, to support those affected, through programmes like ReAct+.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for what you have just said. Clearly, towns like Holyhead, Llandudno, Wrexham and Rhyl are facing losing Wilko stores that have either closed or are about to close. We heard earlier how that leaves a gap on the high street, and that undermines the broader viability of some of those urban centres. But from the perspective of the workers particularly, you referred to the programmes and support available. What assurance can you give, despite how difficult it is, that the budgets for those programmes will be safeguarded in the coming years, because we hear of the cuts happening within Government, but we hear week on week, session after session here about the support that is needed when Tata, Wilko and the list provided by Luke Fletcher do arise? There is a risk, of course, that, in reducing that support, the impact will be so much worse. So, what assurances can you give that those budgets will be protected wherever possible?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think I can give the Member the assurance that in areas where we'll need to support workers, we'll have the means to do so. The Wilko example is particularly difficult, as Poundland and B&M between them bought around 120 stores, but we're not sure where all those locations are yet. So, that's real uncertainty for lots of workers in Wales and across the rest of the UK and, indeed, the distribution centre in John Griffiths's constituency, which is closing.
So, I can give the Member the assurance that on that demand-led programme of the support required, I think we're able to support workers who need it. And for the future, as the economy Minister, I must be prepared to move budgets across my department to make sure workers are properly supported. Some workers in trade union-organised workplaces may well be able to secure arrangements, if that business is closing or shrinking, that provides them with a package that gives them a better cushion and access to skills support. Wilko workers—lower paid workers, typically—but also to think about the scale of the trade union organisation, there may be a greater call on Welsh Government support for them. That's the commitment I'd like to give the Member and, indeed, constituents across the country that I think we have the support available now, and I'm prepared to act to make sure that support is available in the future if we see larger unemployment events.

Thank you, Minister and Deputy Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

The next item will be the questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Catheter Strategy

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the delivery of a catheter strategy for all hospitals that serve the people of Aberconwy? OQ59917

Eluned Morgan AC: Yes, thanks. Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is responsible for its own catheter strategy. I expect them to follow guidance, such as the unplanned admissions consensus committee’s Welsh best practice guide. They are supported with national initiatives, including procurement contracts, and the development of standardised catheter care bundles and an all-Wales catheter passport.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister. I'd be really grateful if you could possibly write out again, pointing them to this particular initiative, because I've had many concerns raised with me recently about families attending hospital and seeing catheter bags almost overflowing. You've rightly pointed out in January 2018 that BCHU launched the Safe Clean Care campaign and at that time, again, it was a request to the late and lovely chairman, Peter Higson, who actually raised it with hospitals that they had to be really meticulous in their handling of catheter bags. In 2021 the health board went further by offering a special passport to enhance communication and catheter care for almost 2,000 people who rely on these things. To this day, though, there remains massive stigma about catheter use, concerns that drainage bags are not always emptied promptly, and more recently it's been raised with me that catheters are not changed—the pipes—within the recommended four to 12-week time frame, often several weeks later. So, what steps will you take, Minister, to ensure that catheters are changed according to those very guidelines, that bags are emptied promptly, and that there is more work undertaken on tackling stigma in north Wales? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I will remind the health board of the Welsh best practice in relation to catheters and what we're looking at, and what is expected of them. What I can tell you is that one in five patients in the NHS have a catheter, and that costs about £145 million in terms of community care. So, we're talking about a lot of people here who are in this situation. I understand that Betsi Cadwaladr has had a Getting It Right First Time review on their urology services, and all relevant units within Betsi Cadwaladr will be now developing a trial without catheter pathway for more expeditious assessments of patients with urinary retention.

Cancer Inequalities

Delyth Jewell AC: 2. What action is the Welsh Government taking to address cancer inequalities across Wales? OQ59938

Eluned Morgan AC: We have a cross-departmental approach to addressing inequalities in cancer risk, inequalities in access to cancer services and inequalities in cancer outcome. As well as a cross-Government approach to addressing the determinants of health, such as poverty and a healthy environment.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Gweinidog. In the valleys where I'm from a lung cancer diagnosis is something many people dread, and it's more prevalent in my area because of the long shadow that coal mining and heavy industry still casts over our communities. Now, cancer is often diagnosed at a later stage and people are at greater risk of dying as a result. In Caerphilly101 people died from the disease in 2021, which is 6.3 per cent higher than the national average. Now, tools like lung screening can help diagnose cancer earlier, improving the chances for people living in areas not just in Caerphilly, but across the south-east of Wales, that are so often referred to as deprived, which is a word I really dislike, but it means that people are denied so many opportunities—in this context, denied the chance of living longer if they get this disease. Would you give an update, please, on plans to roll out a full lung screening programme in Wales, and will you commit to rolling out a fully funded programme to ensure that lung cancer can be diagnosed as early as possible?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, what we do know is that around four in 10 cancers are potentially preventable, and lung cancer is definitely one of those. The incidence of smoking, we know, is higher in those communities that you talk about. So, there's a stage before that that we need to get to. We do need to concentrate and focus our efforts on trying to stop people from smoking in the first place so they don't develop cancer. So, I think it's really important, when we talk about cancer, to look at the whole system and make sure we don't forget about the prevention side of things.
Now, of course, what we need to do then is to make sure that, if that develops, and the outcomes for lung cancer—. It's very difficult, because you seem to find it quite late, and once you get to that point it's more difficult to treat. So, early diagnosis is really important. One of the programmes we've got at the moment is a really interesting initiative that focuses on lung cancer, and we've chosen lung cancer as the first cancer to go after because of the poor rates of people who actually can recover from it, and that's in relation to liquid biopsies. So, we've specifically gone after liquid biopsies in relation to cancer treatment and just trying to identify who has it, how early you get it, if you get it back after you've contracted it. So, there's a lot of work being done in that space. It's quite a cutting-edge technology that we're looking at here. What I'm interested in is just to wait until we see the outcomes of that pilot, because what that would mean is that we're looking at a much less invasive mechanism of working out whether people have lung cancer. So, I hope that that kind of initiative is something that, once we know whether it has worked properly, we can roll out.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, one of the greatest inequalities in cancer care is the revelation that we are not collecting data on the ethnicity of cancer patients. Many might say, 'Why does that matter—it is just data?', but when it comes to treatment that data is vital. How do we know that treatments developed for white northern Europeans are effective in treating cancers in patients of African or Indo-Asian descent? Assumptions are being made about how patients will respond, despite there being clear differences in how certain cancers affect different racial groups. Minister, what steps are the Welsh Government taking to ensure ethnicity data is included in all patient records, particularly as we move toward personalised medicine?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I was very interested to read some of the findings of the cross-party group on cancer and on the inequalities of cancer, and certainly data is absolutely key. That's certainly something that we're always trying to improve—how we manage our data, how we monitor our data—and ethnicity is something, certainly, we'll need to consider. What interests me, as we get into this new, more individualised response to how we deal with cancer, so responding to the particular cancer in that particular individual—. We're right on the threshold of something very, very different I think, in terms of the way we deal with cancer in future. I read recently, for example, that the way that some people respond to chemotherapy changes due to the different biomes in their stomach; everybody's got a different biome. So, this individualised approach will be developing in future years, and, obviously, ethnicity, all of those kinds of things, hopefully, will be a consideration when we move to the next phase of how we deal with cancer. And let's not forget that this is all going to be very challenging. You know the financial situation we're in, we know that one in two people develop cancer, and that, as people get older, their chances of getting cancer is going to increase, so none of this is going to be cheap, so we have some really serious challenges ahead of us.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, in our more deprived communities in Wales, the rates of obesity are still too high. Overweight and obesity prevalence is higher in the most deprived quintile compared to the least deprived quintile in Wales, by the 2021-22 figures. And in findings by Cancer Research UK, in their cancer inequalities report, it states that, if current trends continue, the projections are that there will be almost as many obese people as people of a healthy weight in Wales by the 2040s. We know that maintaining a healthy weight is one of the best ways to minimise the risk of developing cancer. So, Minister, what more can Welsh Government do to tackle obesity levels and the related incidence of cancer in our more deprived communities?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much. This is very much something that my colleague Lynne Neagle leads on, and, certainly, the work that the Welsh Government is doing to try and set out a vision for a smoke-free Wales, making sure that we get a better result in terms of increasing the proportion of children and young people who have a smoke-free childhood. And there's some work being done on e-cigarettes, and of course we had that announcement recently in terms of what we're hoping to do in relation to that.
But you're quite right. I'm particularly concerned about obesity. I think we've got to start talking about this in a really serious way. We're nearing a crisis in relation to this. And this is not something that is going to happen in 2040—60 per cent of people in Wales are overweight or obese now. So, this can't wait any longer. I think there's a whole strategy that has been published, which has all been tested in terms of how we best connect with people. Because if you just go and knock them on the head, and say, 'Don't be so ridiculous, you need to lose weight', that's not going to work. We have to do this in a way that looks at the behavioural science, what is it that changes this.
And the other issue that I've been reading a lot about over the summer is in relation to ultra-processed foods. And I seriously think that this is an area—. It's very difficult for us as just the Welsh Government to deal with this. That's why I'm very saddened to see that the UK Government is not taking this as seriously as I think it should do, because, ideally, we need to do this across the United Kingdom—it would be much, much easier. But there's a whole raft of work that my colleague Lynne Neagle is working on at the moment in relation to making sure we look at those broader issues, making sure, for example, that it's less easy to get access to the kinds of foods that are harmful. It's been very interesting; recently, I've been doing a lot of school visits around Wales, junior school visits. And I've read that 20 per cent of our pupils go into school at the age of five overweight—go into school. But what's been really interesting for me is the contrast between what I've heard and what I've seen in Mid and West Wales schools, where I'm not seeing that pattern in quite the same way. And I think we've got to ask questions about is that because of the availability of food on every street corner. So, we've got to consider all those kinds of things, and that's certainly something that Lynne Neagle, I know, is working on.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Gareth Davies.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Ministers. Most people in Wales will be acutely aware of the horrific serial killer who took the lives of infants just over the border from north-east Wales in the Countess of Chester. Lucy Letby, from a position of responsibility and care, abused her position to gain access to vulnerable infants, trying to kill 18 babies, succeeding in the murder of eight of them. People across Wales will be concerned as to whether this could happen here. The UK Government are carrying out a review, but what about Wales? Are there lessons that we can learn?
I note the written statement by the Welsh Government this lunch time on the speaking up safely process, but are the procedures in place in our Welsh NHS, and does the Minister think they are robust enough to deal with a similar situation were it to happen here in Wales?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much. I think we were all very troubled by the Lucy Letby situation, and, certainly, what I know is that our officials—. The director general of the NHS has written out to all of the health boards to make sure that they understand that there is now a duty of candour that was introduced as a result of the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Act in 2020, and that we make sure that we strengthen the 'Putting Things Right' process. So, that duty applies to all NHS organisations,to make sure that quality-driven decisions improve the quality of health services in Wales. So, we have issued that framework for speaking up safely earlier than planned, but, as soon as we heard about the Lucy Letby incidents, then a letter was sent out to health boards.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for that response, Minister, and I appreciate it's a difficult situation to talk about, but one that shouldn't be ignored in ensuring the safety of people in the future in Wales, and I appreciate the response to my written question over the summer recess, to the same tune as your response.
Now, I understand and accept that, following the UK Government's inquiry into the Lucy Letby situation, you have expressed an interest in taking the findings and making changes as appropriate, as you've mentioned. This is welcome, but it is likely to be years down the line before you even begin to analyse the findings and make those changes. Is the Welsh Government considering any immediate lessons to be learned, in addition to your response, that apply here in Wales? My view is that the clear lesson is one of greater protections and more respect for whistleblowers. As many people in the profession will know—and as I know coming from that working background—there can be a culture of ostracisation and embarrassment for those who dare to speak up.
So, with that in mind, Minister, do you believe it's necessary, acceptable or right that third sector charities, such as Protect in this instance, should be administering internal NHS complaints on their behalf, rather than the NHS itself, which makes reference to that fact on page 16 of the report?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much. We have been working on the speaking up safely framework for a number of months. So, this was way pre the Lucy Letby case coming to court. And that's been developed in partnership with the trade unions, and making sure that people who work in the NHS know that that is going to be a framework that works for them, where they feel safe, that they can come forward and that they know there will be protection for them. So, what we've done is we've published that, and what we will do is to keep that under active review for the next 12 months, to ensure it remains fit for purpose. And, obviously, if something comes out of lessons learnt during the inquiry into the Lucy Letby case, then, obviously, we will consider those in that review.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you again, Minister, and I do appreciate the Welsh Government's ambition in dealing with this situation. But I think the key thing to achieve is for that to permeate onto the front line, so it's not just an ambition that's spoken about, obviously, in the Seneddand in Government circles, but something that's felt throughout the entire Welsh NHS system.
Finally, my final question is a steer away from my initial line of questioning. It's the Welsh Conservatives' view that we need to work with all 22 councils here in Wales to ensure that no child slips through the net and all children obtain the maximum level of care, as the people of Wales rightly expect. Does the Minister agree with me that Wales is the nation of the UK most at risk of serious failings, like we saw with Logan Mwangi and like we saw with Kaylea Titford, because we are the only part of the UK to have not undertaken a children's services review across the 22 local authorities? Why should Wales accept your word that the system is robust? We need clarity. And does the Minister, finally, agree with me that it's about time for a Wales-wide children's services review?

The Minister will have to take the question. She's started now.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you.

Just for the record, both myself and the Ministers were expecting the question to be in a subject area for the Deputy Minister to answer. That wasn't the case, and the Minister, thankfully, stood, so—[Inaudible.]

Gareth Davies AS: I had health and social services—.

So, the Minister will continue with the answer to the final question.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, Julie Morgan is very much the expert in this area, so it would be more appropriate for her to answer this. What I can tell you is that we are very aware of the tragic cases that have happened in Wales, that we're learning lessons from those. There are lots of lessons to be learnt and what we're trying to do is to implement those lessons. That's the priority: to make sure that we implement them and embed them. Rather than have another review, let's get on with the work that we know has to be done.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon apGwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you, Llywydd. Over the past five years, expenditure on agency staff has increased enormously. Now, Welsh health boards spend £325 million, over 7 per cent of workforce costs, with £225 million of that as a direct result of vacant posts and failure to recruit. In north Wales, the health board spent £30 million on agency staff back in 2018, but, today, that figure has more than doubled to £72 million. In reality, this reflects the failure to provide the workforce with favourable terms and conditions. The Minister will be aware that Plaid Cymru has been calling on the Welsh Government to introduce a workforce plan that would commit to phasing out agency staff over four years, because we're taking money from the health service and giving it to private companies, and it's earned on the back of the hard work of a committed workforce and that's unjust. In a response to a question from me last week, the Minister said that we will see expenditure on agency staff falling this year, giving an assurance, in her own words, that we would see a fall in the number of agency staff this year. Now, perhaps the Minister will have already seen some figures. So, can the Minister expand on that assurance? What's the timetable for this? And what changes will she be implementing to reach that point?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: I think it's really important to recognise that the NHS Wales will always need some flexibility when it comes to workforce capacity. That's partly because we need to make sure that we have safe services. There will be times of extreme pressure, there will be the need to cover sickness absences, maternity leave or unplanned absences. So, there will always be a need for some spend on agency. But you're quite right: the spend at the moment is not where we want it to be. So, we've agreed to work in social partnership and to work to reduce the agency spend. That's going to include a range of measures, including a revised control framework for expenditure. And what I can tell you is that agency spend is trending down month on month already for this year. It's not a significant decrease yet, but I am hoping that we will see a more significant fall by the end of this year.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for that answer. We already know that three quarters of our nurses work overtime, yet 42 per cent are not paid for that work. They choose agency work because it gives them greater flexibility and they are paid for what they do, but it means that in many cases they have to work away from home. Hence why we are seeing so many nurses leaving the profession. Nurses tell me that, if they were paid overtime, then they would be more likely to stay in the profession and, in fact, some would come back to the profession. So, one solution to avoid having to go to agencies is to simply pay nurses overtime. Finance directors are allowed to pay overtime, but, for whatever reasons, they choose not to do so and instead opt for agency staff. Paying overtime is one simple solution to help with retention and keep money in the NHS. So, is the Minister willing to look at this as a viable option and instruct finance officers to use this method of payment, moving forward?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Significant work has already been undertaken within the national workforce implementation plan, which really focuses on this issue, and that plan includes the need to develop flexibility. So, it’s clear that, in the past, the rules around this have been too tight. So, we are trying to respond to what the Royal College of Nursing and other organisations have been asking us, and so there are now some examples of achievements already. Health Education and Improvement Wales has launched a refreshed and enhanced attraction and recruitment campaign for the NHS, but you’re absolutely right that what we need to look at is retention. And what we’ve said in the plan is that we are absolutely taking a holistic approach. So, we need to focus on just looking at the optimal conditions to support staff to stay in the NHS, and the detail for that will be outlined in the nursing retention plan that’s going to be launched shortly alongside a national retention programme for Wales.

Financial Pressures on Capital Plans

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 3. Will the Minister make a statement on the implications of financial pressures on capital plans in the health sector in north Wales? OQ59937

Eluned Morgan AC: There remain significant financial pressures across theNHS for both revenue and capital. Betsi CadwaladrUniversity Health Board will need to continue to prioritise capital requirements to ensure that they are focusing on essential services. As a result, difficult decisions are going to need to be made.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The Royal Alexandra Hospital in Rhyl was closed in 2009, with a pledge that it would be redeveloped. Indeed, community hospitals were closed on the back of that pledge to redevelop the Royal Alex. There was a business case in 2021, which highlighted the need to redevelop it. Fourteen years later, we are still waiting for that to happen. The health board is waiting for the Government to confirm whether funding will be available, the county council, which discussed this recently, is still waiting, and residents and patients in the north are still waiting.
Now, in light of the budgetary challenges that you have just outlined to us, you can answer one of two questions—you can choose which one to answer. Either will you answer when we will see the redevelopment of the Royal Alex in Rhyl, or perhaps you would prefer to tell us whether we will ever see the redevelopment of the Royal Alex in Rhyl?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thank you very much. This was something that I raised with the board last week. I have regular meetings with the board and this is something that I impressed on them. There needs to be a decision on this; there needs to be a prioritisation. Now, it's going to be difficult for them to prioritise. I'm very keen, for example, to see an improvement in the numbers that receive orthopaedic treatment in north Wales—the waiting lists are too long. And so, there will be a need to weigh up whether you want a new orthopaedic centre or the redevelopment of the Royal Alex. I don't think that's a decision for me; I think it's a decision that the board has to weigh up in terms of what the most important thing is at present.
What we do know in relation to the Royal Alex is that, when that decision was made that we wanted to see that development, it would have cost about £20 million; by now, it would cost approximately £80 million. And what you are aware of is that, this year, our capital funding across the entire Government went up by £1 million. So, the capital situation is very difficult for us. But what I can tell you is that, over the last 10 years, Betsi Cadwaladr has had £454 million in capital funding from the Welsh Government.

Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Will the Minister make a statement—? Oh, yes, sorry—

Janet Finch-Saunders, you really do need to focus when you're in the Chamber—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I am focused.

You were totally distracted there in e-mailing, and I would ask—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'm not the only one, with all due respect.

No, no. I'll—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Come on—

No, don't challenge me and don't 'come on' me, right? I'm not in the mood for it today. You were totally distracted. I was trying to look at you, to catch your attention that you were to be called next, and you were typing away. So, focus on what you're doing. Ask the Minister the question; she's here to answer what you have to ask, so ask the correct one this time.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Okay, thank you. The Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board estate strategy, dated 6 January 2023, highlights that £1.61 billion of capital investment—[Interruption.] It's what?

Carry on.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Sorry, what am I doing wrong now?

You're doing nothing wrong at the moment.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Okay, thank you. The priorities for the capital programme are the Wrexham Maelor Hospital infrastructure continuity programme; Ysbyty Gwynedd fire compliance programme, regional treatment centre programme and expanded orthopaedics capacity; Royal Alexandra Hospital development project; a replacement of the Ablett unit at Glan Clwyd Hospital and a medical and health sciences school. Now, there's no mention of projects in hospitals such as Bryn y Neuadd, which already has a maintenance backlog of £27.5 million and now has reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete—the concrete issue. What steps are you taking to co-operate with Betsi Cadwaladr to ensure that capital investment is being made in these small yet vitally important hospitals, such as Bryn y Neuadd? Diolch.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. What I can tell you is that our capital budget is massively restricted, and that's thanks to the Tory Government, which has only given us £1 million in additional capital funding for the entirety of the Welsh Government additionally this year. It's not my job to prioritise what the health board—. Because these are clinical decisions, they need to work out, 'Right, what is the most urgent thing here? Is it to fix mental health or is it to put more into cancer care, or is it to put more into orthopaedics, or is it to develop the Royal Alexandra?' I don't think it's my place to determine for them where they put that money.
What I can tell you is that, actually, quite a lot of our capital money is spent on simply keeping the lights on. We have got an ageing estate, and so when you talk about the Wrexham Maelor continuity programme, that's quite a lot of money, but if we don't spend it, it will be difficult to keep that hospital open, because the electrics just won't stand up to the pressure that they're under at the moment. So, there are things that we have to spend to keep the show on the road, and then we have to think, 'Right, what are the priorities and what matters most to the people in north Wales?'
I don't think that I should be intervening in determining what the clinical priorities should be. That's why we appoint health boards, to make those decisions. They are closer to the people. They know where the safety issues are, for example. It would be wrong of me to say, 'Right, develop this', and then see that, actually, you can't keep the lights on, which means that people just are decanted from hospitals. So, it's not my call, I don't think, but I obviously keep in close touch with the health boards in terms of their determining what they want to do.

Mobile Dental Units

James Evans AS: 4. Will the Minister provide an update on the use of mobile dental units across Wales? OQ59916

Eluned Morgan AC: There are a number of drivable and towable mobile dental units that have been commissioned in innovative ways across Wales. This includes use for the delivery of oral health initiatives such as Gwên am Byth, Designed to Smile, or to deliver additional general dental service capacity in underserved areas.

James Evans AS: I'd like to thank the Minister for her answer. Minister, we've discussed this before. As you know, these are key parts of the health service, which I think are really needed, actually, to get to the most deprived people in our society and, actually, to help our schools and our young children—getting their check-ups and getting dental care—because we do know that good oral health has good links to good overall health, and good mental health as well. So, with discussions you're having as part of the Government review with funding, I was just interested, with the pilot schemes that have been launched across the country, is there going to be longer term funding for the mobile dental units, going forward, or are we going to see some of these schemes paused due to the funding pressures currently being faced by the Welsh Government?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. You'll be aware that there is a pilot programme being undertaken in a school in north Wales at the moment—in Ysgol y Moelwyn—so that is up and running. It'll be interesting to see what the results of that are and whether it constitutes value for money for us, and all of that, of course, is critical in our assessments going forward.
In terms of mobile units, there's value to them, but I think we've also got to understand that they're not ideal either. You do have to consider things like whether you've got the right plumbing and the right kind of environment for them to work effectively. So, there are mobile dental units, for example, and I know that they make good use of them, in Carmarthen, and in Powys, for example, they've been using a mobile unit in Machynlleth, but I think now that they've got the new development, that's going to be moved into the new development. So, as a concept, we're going to see how it goes in Ysgol y Moelwyn, and if that works, then, obviously, we'll have to reassess and see whether that is a model we can consider rolling out further.

Cefin Campbell AS: Llandeilo, Fishguard, Cross Hands, Ammanford—these are some of the areas in my region that have been greatly impacted as 24 per cent of dentists in the Hywel Dda area brought their NHS contracts to an end over the past year. And, unfortunately, this figure is going to increase as we heard the recent news that NHS provision is going to come to end in Haverfordwest and Whitland at the end of November.
Last year, only 30 per cent of the population in Wales had an appointment with a dentist in the NHS. But, following the location of a mobile dental unit in Ammanford recently, as a new contractor established there, has the Government considered providing more mobile dental units—you've already mentioned some of them—in rural communities in order to fill the gap? And, if so, what assessment have you made to ensure that there is sufficient workforce available to make these mobile units a realistic option?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I'm highly aware of the situation in west Wales. That's one reason why we've offered an additional £5,000, to encourage people to train in areas such as west Wales. But, if we, as a Government, lose that contract, you don't lose the money; what you do is re-contract to someone else. That's what happened in Ammanford, where we have re-contracted, but the centre isn't yet ready and that is why they've put that mobile unit in place temporarily. Now, clearly, you've heard about the financial situation, which is very challenging, and so, being realistic, I don't think that we will see a great deal purchased and used. But, there is, for example, a lot of additional help that has been provided in Carmarthen in terms of urgent access capacity. A great deal of work has been done in Hywel Dda University Health Board, and they have made that investment in urgent access capacity and that is being used in the mobile unit in Carmarthen.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. Just to follow up on the question that Cefin has asked—and I do thank James Evans for raising the issue around dentistry, which is one that I know many of us here are concerned about—following on from the issue around clawbacks, as I understand it, they're contracts that are returned to the local health boards. In Powys, we know that the total amount of clawback from dental care practices undertaking NHS works amounts to £241,000, representing almost half of all the NHS dental practices in the health board, which, for Powys, is a really high number. So, I just wondered if you could tell us how we can learn how you're reinvesting, or how you expect the health board to reinvest the money that is coming back from those clawbacks, from those hand-backs of dental contracts, immediately in relation to continued dental health care. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. The figures I've got for Powys are very different in relation to the contract hand-backs in Powys, so, it'd be interesting for us to compare notes on that later. But, what I can tell you is that, of course, the funding is not lost. As I say, it remains within the health board and then they replace it with alternative dental services. The problem is that the reprocurement takes time, and, obviously, what that means is that there's a gap in provision, and health boards have to try and make arrangements to provide urgent emergency care while those displaced patients are changed and moved to a recommissioned dentist. So, I'd be very happy to compare notes with you in terms of the contract returns, because the suggestion that I have is they're not as significant as you're suggesting there.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Weinidog. I wanted to touch on some concerns you alluded to with regard to the mobile dental unit in your answer to James Evans. I'm sure you're aware there was an article in Nation Cymru over the summer months about mobile dental units being purchased by Cardiff and Vale health board at a cost of nearly £0.5 million, but that they were out of action for many different reasons at multiple times due to various faults. The article went further to claim that the vehicles were not properly MOT certified and that one of the units was driven illegally 16 times. Now, you're more aware than anyone here of the long waiting lists here in Cardiff to get seen by a dentist, so would you agree to a review by your officials of the use of the mobile dental units in Cardiff and Vale University Health Board due to the concerns raised in that Nation Cymru article? Diolch.

Eluned Morgan AC: Part of the reason for that expense is that some of those mobile dental units are fitted with bariatric chairs, which, obviously, need to be reinforced and which provide Cardiff with the capacity to treat bariatric patients. So that would, perhaps, explain some of the reason why they are more expensive. I think it's probably important to underline that there are limitations to the effectiveness of mobile dental units as care delivery models for the longer term, and that's partly because there may be mechanical issues that need to be considered, there are infection prevention and control requirements that need to be considered, and, of course, we have to consider travel time for the staff and for patients. The key thing, of course, in relation to dentistry always is the staff situation. You can invest in lots and lots of new mobile units, but if you don't have the staff, they're pretty pointless. So, for me, focus on staffing is absolutely critical, and I was very pleased, over the summer, to go and visit the new dental academy in Bangor, which, of course, will help to provide some of those people who will be helping us in future in this area.

Health Services in North Wales

Ken Skates AC: 5. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve health services in north Wales? OQ59912

Eluned Morgan AC: In my statement yesterday, I set out the progress that has been made since I put Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board back into special measures, and I outlined the support the health board is receiving from the Welsh Government and the NHS executive to address a range of clinical and operational issues.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Minister. You've already highlighted the extreme financial pressures that the NHS in Wales is facing, because of the huge real-terms reductions in funding to Wales from the UK Government and the price of inflation. Yesterday, I raised the need for a new health centre in Cefn Mawr, and also there's a need for a new GP surgery in Hanmer, and I'm very pleased with the progress that's being made by the health board with regard to both projects. Minister, will the Welsh Government commit to protecting as best it can the very precious capital funding that's available for new and improved health facilities as we navigate through these incredibly difficult times?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. You're quite right, it is a challenging time, particularly in relation to capital in the health service, but what we have undertaken is some support in relation to that integration and rebalancing of capital funds, so there is a ring-fenced amount of money. It was launched in 2022, and that's going to reach £70 million within three years. So, there is some money there in order to do precisely what you're talking about. What we are now looking at, in particular in north Wales, is that six projects have been approved, including the next stage business casefor the development of a health and well-being hub for Conwy and Llandudno Junction, and a well-being centre in Penygroes in Gwynedd. But it's good to hear that they're also progressing with those GP services that you mentioned.

E-prescribing

Sarah Murphy AS: 6. What work has the Welsh Government done to engage with vulnerable groups in relation to e-prescribing? OQ59923

Eluned Morgan AC: We recognise the importance of ensuring that all citizens across Wales should be able to have access to their medicines and prescription information in a format that suits them, and the continuing engagement with both vulnerable and non-vulnerable groups across Wales will ensure that their voices are heard.

Sarah Murphy AS: Diolch, Minister. It is good to hear that positive news about the potential as well for e-prescribing across Wales, because there are so many benefits to it, including not having millions of pieces of prescription paper flying around Wales all of the time. And it really will help patients when they're in hospital, and they'll be able to be discharged faster. If you go into hospital and you aren't able to say what prescription you're on, it will be able to be pulled up. There really are so many benefits, so I am in favour of it.
We are investigating e-prescribing through the lens of data justice and therefore social justice in our Equality and Social Justice Committee. So, just some of the things that have been raised so far. Having spoken to survivors of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, they were saying that, at the moment, they would be quite concerned that anybody would be able to access their records. So, anybody who worked in the NHS. So, maybe if their perpetrator worked in the NHS or somebody who was known to the perpetrator. And they actually went so far to say that they would fear for their life if there was a possibility that they would be able to access their address, and it would also probably stop them from even going to their GP because they would be so frightened. So, that was one thing I wanted to raise.
The British Medical Association as well has suggested that there is probably going to be a need for an opt-in and informed consent-based model. However, I'm concerned that, at the moment, we're hearing maybe that they're more leaning towards doing an opt-out model. So, any consideration of that—. But, Community Pharmacy Wales have then also said that they're fully behind it, but as you know, it will allow England's online distance-selling pharmacies, which do not exist in Wales and have no high street presence, to easily access Welsh prescriptions. At the moment, they've got a 5 per cent market share in England. If they were to have that market share in Wales, we would see our pharmacies close on our high streets, all impacting, as we know, the most vulnerable. So, my follow-up question is: what cross-Government work is being done in relation to this plan to move to e-prescribing, and where are the equality and economic impact assessments in particular? Diolch.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, I've spent a lot of time trying to see what we can do in relation to digital progress within the NHS. I think this is where it's at in terms of transformation. Obviously, it's very frustrating when you have the kind of financial challenges we're up against at the moment, because it perhaps will not now go as fast as I'd like it to go. But, what I can tell you is that massive progress is being made. We do have the digital medicines transformation portfolio, and what that's done is they've engaged with people across the whole of Wales. And the point of this is that it started with the user. So, it's a user-centred design. I think this is really important. What you don't want is a bunch of geeks developing something that, actually, normal people can't use. So, it's got to start with what the patients need and want and how you're going to use it. So, it's turning the whole system on its head, really.
You're quite right to set out some of the concerns. I think when they talked about this in England, they got it in the wrong place and it slowed everything down. So, we're determined to get this right. So, we are taking it slower. But I think there are huge wins for us here if we get this right. I got massively frustrated over the summer, because I went to get a new pair of glasses, and what was interesting was that they knew my prescription in Haverfordwest from a different service that I'd been to in Cardiff, and I just thought, 'Wow, that's amazing.' So, it doesn't sound like rocket science, but actually we need to get there.
I do think that the public—. It's quite interesting, isn't it, because if we're using Facebook or we're using—you know, we are putting out our information everywhere. If you do it with the NHS, and obviously you've got to protect people and I absolutely take on board what you're suggesting in terms of women who've succumbed to violence and things, we've absolutely got to protect them, but the gains in terms of data, what we can learn and what we can share could be phenomenal. So, we've got to try and navigate this very, very sensitive system. At the moment, a lot of the information is effectively owned by GPs, and patients have that relationship with GPs that they trust. But you're quite right: if 105,000 people have access to that, who work in the NHS, you're getting into a slightly different place. So, we have got to be sensitive about how we do this. We are trying to do it in a way that takes on board some of the concerns you've set out.

Primary Care Ophthalmic Services

Hefin David AC: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's proposed reforms to primary care ophthalmic services? OQ59919

Eluned Morgan AC: Work is under way through the implementation of a new optometry contracted terms of service, which I announced in September last year. The emphasis is on more treatment and care delivered in the community. The Welsh Government is committed to improving healthcare services and improving the provision of eye health is a priority.

Hefin David AC: I’ve written to the Minister about this issue regarding concerns that have been raised with me by high-street opticians in Caerphilly. They’re concerned that the reforms, while well-intentioned, could actually end up widening inequalities in eye health. So, they support the reform proposals for significant investment in the sector and expanding the scope of practice, which is what the Government is proposing, but they also feel the voucher system could mean that some of the poorest in our community will have less to spend on the glasses that they need, and that is a concern, and I think some of the lobby groups have changed their position since the consultation closed. Some of the Optometry Wales position has changed. So, would the Minister agree to meet with Optometry Wales to discuss those ongoing concerns about the reforms, and how their position has changed in the time since the consultation opened?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, thanks very much. You’ll be aware, Hefin, that there is increasing demand for eye health care, and so, if we want to see sustainability in future, we have to do things differently, and shifting that emphasis from secondary care, hospitals, into the community is fundamental for that. We have incredibly talented people working in our ophthalmology services, so why wouldn’t we want to use them? So, the question is: how do we use them in a way that works for everybody, including those professional optometrists?
What I can tell you is that we haven’t done any of this without doing it with Optometry Wales. Everything has been negotiated with them. The new NHS Wales general ophthalmic service reflects the actual cost of providing services and optical appliances, and that’s going to come into effect towards the end of next month. So, what we’re going to do is the clinical fees and the voucher values will be subject, however, to annual tripartite negotiations between Welsh Government, NHS Wales and Optometry Wales. But I am confident that the negotiation—. The UK ophthalmic voice was in a different place from the Welsh ophthalmic voice on this, and that was partly because they didn’t quite trust the UK Government, who were just starting out on the conversations around this, to put in the kind of finances that we’ve put in—an additional £30 million—to address the clinical aspects. So, that’s where I think this lack of trust has come in, Hefin, but I’m confident that we’ve got it in the right place, which will help the poorest in our community.

NHS Wales App

Mark Isherwood AC: 8. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure all GP surgeries are able to access, and are using, the NHS Wales app? OQ59904

Eluned Morgan AC: Digital Health and Care Wales is actively working with each GP practice across Wales to assist them in adopting the NHS Wales app, clearly communicating the benefits to the practice. Our phased plan aims to have supported all GP surgeries to connect by the end of this financial year.

Mark Isherwood AC: RNIB Cymru’s report 'Make it Make Sense. Inaccessible information: a health inequality' highlights the issue of inaccessible patient communications putting patients with sight loss at risk. The report states that
'Improvements to patient communication could go a long way towards reducing wasted appointments and maximising the capacity of the health service, delivering the dual benefit of saving NHS costs and improving outcomes for patients.'
The report also states that more than half of the people they surveyed have received information from their GP or hospital in a format they could not read, adding that this has
'serious practical, health and emotional consequences.'
How do you therefore respond to the call by RNIB Cymru for local health boards to receive support and funding to upgrade their IT systems so that patient communication requirements in GP surgeries and across primary and secondary healthcare settings can be recorded and actioned for every patient?

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Mark. I think the question is relevant to the question that was asked earlier by Sarah about actually how do we make sure that people, in moving to a digital age, are still able to access services if they're from a community that finds that more difficult. What we have done is we have given significant funding to GP services, for example, to upgrade their systems, and the access contract that we've got with GPs means, I think, you will have noted the significant reduction in volume when it comes to people complaining about access to GPs. That's partly because we've put in these new digital systems, and we're very keen to make sure that not only are they able to access it, but importantly when it comes to, for example, repeat prescriptions, that you will be able to do quite a lot of that on an app, or it will happen automatically. So, one of the things that's happened this summer for example, is that we've just piloted a series of tests—this happened in Rhyl—where we tried to make sure that if you got a prescription, that it could be sent directly to a pharmacy and then that you would be informed about that. So, I think there are actually real opportunities here for people across Wales, including people from communities like the blind community who will be able to access things and things will be done—for example, repeat prescriptions could be done automatically.

I thank the Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Item 3 this afternoon is the topical questions. I call on Altaf Hussain to ask the question.

Chwarae Teg

Altaf Hussain AS: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the closure of Chwarae Teg? TQ846

Hannah Blythyn AC: We are disappointed to hear of the closure of Chwarae Teg. I would like to pay tribute to its work over many years. The charity has touched and made a difference to the lives of women across Wales and provided the Welsh Government with the insights to collectively deliver change.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you for your response, Deputy Minister. It is a sad day for equalities in Wales. Chwarae Teg have been fighting for gender equality since 1992 and have a strong track record of holding the Welsh Government to account. Their annual 'State of the Nation' reports provide invaluable insight to those of us seeking to create a more equal Wales. It is therefore deeply concerning and regrettable that the Welsh Government did not see fit to rescue the charity. As Sharon Williams said in her statement this morning, this is
'desperately sad news for our staff, funders and clients—but above all for the women of Wales who we have been so proud to serve over so many years.'
I would like to pay tribute to all those working for the charity, and urge the Welsh Government to assist the workforce facing redundancy. Ms Williams added that the team had recently secured a number of new contracts, which showed that the need for their work is as great as ever. Minister, do you agree that the need for their work is as great as ever? I do. Therefore, Minister, what actions are the Welsh Government taking to ensure that there continues to be an independent assessment of the Welsh Government's gender equality work, and will you ensure there continues to be an annual 'State of the Nation' report? Thank you very much.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Altaf Hussain for his question and his interest in this area? You're absolutely right, it is regrettable. For 30 years, Chwarae Teg has provided useful insight, support and advice to Government around issues of gender equality, and their departure from the agenda is very much regrettable.
I think, first and foremost, our thoughts are with the members of staff who now face redundancy, and we're already working with Working Wales to make sure they get the support and assistance that they need. Alongside this, officials and I are working with Chwarae Teg and other partners to find the best way for the continuation of the valuable work the organisation has been doing, absolutely recognising the role there is to play there, and the need to continue some of that work and that support right across Wales.

Sioned Williams AS: The day after we discuss a long-overdue proposal to ensure the Senedd is more representative of Welsh society, we learn that this prominent gender equality charity, Chwarae Teg, is shutting down. It's deeply concerning, as you said, for the staff especially, but also because of that invaluable and important research, policy and practical work Chwarae Teg has done to promote gender equality in Wales, for example headline-making reports such as 'State of the Nation', the programmes such as LeadHerShip—I know many of us have taken part in that—to encourage young women into public life, and the Not Just for Boys programme showing young women opportunities in science, technology, engineering cand mathematics. Urgent work is needed by the Welsh Government to assess the gap that will be left in terms of an authority on the best practice in improving equality in Wales. So, will that work be done, and any impact also on women currently being supported by the charity, including those undertaking qualifications?
Deputy Minister, could a bridging loan have been considered, as there are numerous shared prosperity fund-funded projects that will now be under threat? The Welsh Government set out its ambition for Wales to be a world leader in gender equality in 2019. You now need to outline the steps you will be taking to mitigate the impact of this news and how this will be achieved without the vital and innovative work of Chwarae Teg in terms of research, policy development and campaigning. I'd also like to know what assessment has been made as regards the wider impact on the third sector in Wales. The Welsh Government has always relied on organisations like Chwarae Teg to deliver on their policy work. So, what will be in place to ensure other similar organisations are supported as they transition to post-Brexit funding streams? Diolch.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Can I thank Sioned Williams for her question? I know this is an area you feel passionate about as well. You, like me and many others in this place, have taken part in the LeadHerShip programme provided by Chwarae Teg, and you list all the other support and projects that the organisation have pioneered and piloted over the years. So, I reiterate again that, very much, it is a regrettable situation. Inevitably, there's going to be a range of factors involved with having to take such a serious decision, and so even a package of short-term support might not have gone far enough to rescue the long-term sustainability of the organisation.
Separately, on the broader piece in terms of the voluntary sector, I know my colleague the Minister for Social Justice is working very closely with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and other organisations around those challenges facing the voluntary sector in the current economic climate, but actually the impact of post-EU funding too and Wales not receiving its fair share now post leaving the EU, and the challenges that they face because of rising costs for all organisations, recognising the role that the voluntary sector plays, like you said, in supporting some of the most vulnerable in our society and communities across Wales.
With respect to Chwarae Teg specifically, we're very much working very closely, obviously, with Working Wales, to support the people that are directly impacted, but with other partners too and other organisations to assess the best way in which that work can be continued, so it doesn't leave a gap in support in Wales, and actually how we can then also ensure that maybe some work that they were looking to do is perhaps able to be done in a different way. So, I very much give the Member and this Senedd my assurances that it is high on the Welsh Government's agenda. Of course, this is a very recent announcement and an evolving situation, and I'd be more than happy to update the Senedd in more detail in due course.

Finally, Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Just following on from some of the sentiments this afternoon, I do thank Altaf Hussain for raising the issue. We know that Chwarae Teg really is part of the fabric of gender equality here in Wales. Their campaigns and strategies, particularly in tackling violence against women and girls, are well known to all of us, and, in fact, many of us have taken evidence from their staff in relation to their expert research and experiences directly with service users. So, it is of grave concern to hear that they are closing. We know that there are significant financial pressures on the Government, but in Wales the third sector does punch above its weight, and, actually, investing in the third sector actually delivers far, far more money than you put in. So, I just wondered if you could tell us what impact you think—or give us an indication—the loss of Chwarae Teg will have on progressing the Government's violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy and gender equality action plan. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch. Thank you, Jane Dodds, and thank you too for recognising the role the organisation has played for some, I think, 30 years now in the Welsh landscape, not only supporting women in organisations and across communities, supporting and helping Members of this place too, but also advising and rightly pushing the Welsh Government to go further and to set and to shape this agenda of a more gender-equal Wales.
Just to repeat the points I made to Sioned Williams, I very much give the assurance that we're working very closely to ensure that, actually, we do not leave a gap, that we're able to see ways in which some of those vital support services continue, but also the work of the major programmes that Chwarae Teg have been doing, and what options there are for them to perhaps be supported in the future, but also going back to our primary focus and our thoughts with those staff who have been affected, and the chief exec of Chwarae Teg, who hasn't actually been in post all that long and has very much inherited these challenges, and seeking to do the best by the workforce and by the organisation, and the people, the places and the communities that they have supported so successfully over the years as well.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

Item 4 this afternoon is the 90-second statements, and the first statement will be from John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. This week, Learning and Work Institute are celebrating their thirty-second year of Adult Learners' Week, in partnership with the Welsh Government. The annual campaign involves a large number of organisations across Wales, and builds on a vision to make Wales a nation of second chances, where it's never too late to learn. Partners across multiple sectors have come together to contribute to a programme of activity. There are over 300 free online and in-person courses, events, tasters, outreach activities and resources on offer.
Every year, the Inspire! adult learning awards provide an opportunity to hear from a diverse set of individuals, community projects and organisations in Wales committed to lifelong learning. This year, we heard from Elinor Ridout, who has returned to the classroom to become a paediatric nurse in memory of her beloved son, Will, and from Walid Musa Albuqai, who fled war-torn Syria with his family and studied English as a second language, enabling him to find a career as a bus driver. We heard from Steven Wright, who has moved to Wales from Australia. He was initially sceptical about the Welsh language, but through a love of culture, he learnt Welsh and has broken new ground in encouraging others to use the language in their everyday lives. As Raymond Williams said,
'To be truly radical is to make hope possible, rather than despair convincing.'
There were many more winners. I congratulate them all, and encourage other Members to read their stories.

Jayne Bryant AC: Last week, Kaleidoscope celebrated 20 years of operating in Wales. Their ethos is to offer effective and innovative treatments for substance misuse. I'm so proud to have such a compassionate and pioneering organisation based in my constituency. They really do make a huge difference in Newport.
Initially set up in 1968 in Kingston upon Thames, offering a safe space for young people, the charity's work has evolved over the years to support thousands of people with drug, alcohol and mental health issues, at key centres throughout the country. In 2003 Newport City Council approached Kaleidoscope, and they started their service in the space at the back of St Paul's church on Commercial Street, with initial funding from Welsh Government for 100 clients. Within a year, that number increased to 500, and Kaleidoscope have since been selected to deliver their innovative approach across every part of Wales. In the words of Martin Blakebrough, their inspirational chief executive officer, society must have a focus on life, that a life is worth saving, and that people who use drugs can have a worthy and happy life, a life worth living:
'People do not choose to become problematic drug users. We need to become more innovative. We campaign for the right for people who take drugs to recover, have access to treatment and to be safe'.
Kaleidoscope's mission is to protect people. They are steadfast in their view that the route to recovery is by showing love and care to those who are struggling to love themselves. They have made a huge difference, and are continuously transforming drug treatment in the areas they serve. They continue to be at the forefront of this work, so here's to the next 20 years.

Sioned Williams AS: This September is Gynaecological Cancer Awareness Month. Throughout the month, various organisations work to raise awareness of the five gynaecological cancers—womb, ovarian, cervical, vulval and vaginal—and promote the support that is available. I have become a Target Ovarian Cancer champion, to help raise awareness of this devastating disease, because over 300 women are diagnosed with ovarian cancer each year in Wales, and it is sadly the most common cause of gynaecological cancer death, yet remains overlooked. The symptoms of ovarian cancer are similar to many other common illnesses, meaning they're often missed or put down to other causes, and, as a result, the cancer can be diagnosed too late and be more difficult to treat. There are four main symptoms: persistent bloating; feeling full quickly and/or loss of appetite; pelvic or abdominal pain; and urinary symptoms. They will be frequent, persistent, and new symptoms, and, occasionally, there can be others, like changes in bowel habits, extreme fatigue, and unexplained weight loss.
We have seen welcome improvements in the diagnosis and treatment of ovarian cancer in Wales, but charities such as Target Ovarian Cancer say there's still much more to be done, as it's unacceptable that awareness of these symptoms is still so low, with just 27 per cent of women able to recognise bloating as a symptom, and that women do not feel they are given sufficient time to discuss their devastating diagnosis with healthcare professionals. Welsh Government needs to prioritise this. But we all have a role to play in encouraging women to recognise these symptoms, seek advice, so we can increase early diagnosis and save lives.

Thank you, all.

5. Motion to note the annual report on the Senedd Commission's Official Languages Scheme for 2022-23

Item 5 is the motion to note the annual report on the Senedd Commission's official languages scheme for 2022-23. I call on Adam Price to move the motion on behalf of the Senedd Commission.

Motion NDM8354 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd: Notes the Annual Report on the Senedd Commission's Official Languages Scheme for the period 2022-23, in accordance with paragraph 8(8) of Schedule 2 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, laid before the Senedd on 29 June 2023.

Motion moved.

Adam Price AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m pleased to present the Senedd Commission's annual report on its official languages scheme for 2022-23 before the Senedd today. In doing so, I would like to thank my predecessor as Commissioner, Rhun ap Iorwerth—my successor as leader of Plaid—for his work during the period covered by this report, and all the Commission staff who have been delivering the work, which is included in the report. Even though it isn't an interest in the narrow, official sense, I'd like to just say that my brother works for the Commission, as a language tutor, and has had the pleasure of teaching Welsh to many of you.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes. He's very good. [Laughter.]

Adam Price AC: Excellent. He'll be pleased to hear that.
Members of the Senedd will be aware that the Senedd Commission is required, in accordance with the Official Languages Act 2012, to submit an annual report on its work in providing bilingual services, including any complaints or cases of the scheme being breached. Over the past year, the work of the official languages team has focused on implementing the scheme for the sixth Senedd, ensuring that Members, their support staff and Senedd Commission staff are aware of any changes that apply to them.

Adam Price AC: Members will now be familiar with the statistical information that is published as part of the annual report. The information is vital for the Commission, and for us as Members, and the public, to be able to monitor several areas within the scope of the scheme. This year, the report also includes last year's figures, for the purposes of providing context and comparison. The information includes details of the jobs that have been advertised, whether those require courtesy Welsh skills or higher levels, which allows us to plan our provision of bilingual services and to identify gaps or training needs. We also include details of the business laid in either language, or bilingually, and the documents that are laid in accordance with the requirement to do so bilingually. On that point, it's good to see a steady reduction in the number of documents laid in English only, which, of course, means that it is easier for Members to prepare for meetings and proceedings in their language of choice.
When looking at the statistical information, there is one area of concern to me as a Commissioner, namely the percentage of Welsh-medium contributions in committee proceedings. It was good to see that we maintained the 30 per cent level of Welsh contributions in Plenary meetings. However, the percentage of Welsh contributions in committee proceedings fell to 8 per cent from last year's level, which was 12 per cent, which was itself very low. We will therefore continue to monitor the situation and look for ways for Members of the Senedd, and others who take part in committee proceedings, to be confident and comfortable in using their language of choice. We will continue to provide the support available to Members, for example, briefings, vocabulary and tutor support in rehearsing speeches or committee contributions, and we will look for other ways to remove any barriers in terms of using the language of choice, and, in this context, of course, using Welsh. To this end, we will also resubmit the table that indicates the percentages of business submitted over the year to the annual report from next year onwards. We have included it in previous years, so, in order to complete the statistics, we will do that again in the future. And if any Member would like to see that data for the reporting period, I will place it in the library for their information.
I believe it would be fair to say that the highlight of this year's report was the number of Members, support staff and Commission staff who are choosing to make use of the Welsh learning and refresher gloywi iaithprovision at the Senedd. Evidently Janet is among them. And it's good to see that we have now returned to the number of learners that we had before we were hit by the pandemic. The team has worked to understand learners' needs and aspirations in the new world of hybrid working, and has developed a timetable and provision that responds to those needs. But there is always room for improvement, and so the team will continue to expand provision and look for opportunities to provide first-class services to all learners in a way that offers something for everyone's taste. Of course, we will continue to celebrate notable successes, such as Members making their first Welsh contributions in Plenary, or success in the exams of the joint education committee. And it was good to see the Counsel General using Welsh in the historic statement that he made yesterday.
To conclude, therefore, I would like to look towards the future and the coming year. We will look again at the elements relating to language skills within the recruitment process, including the assessments for the skill levels on the language skills matrix. And in addition, we hope to be able to carry out a Welsh language skills survey for Senedd Commission staff, in order to assist with the process of reviewing the language schemes of the individual services that feed into the ongoing linguistic planning work. Most importantly, we will continue to nurture an ethos and culture that celebrates the diversity of the Senedd community, encouraging everyone to try out their Welsh skills, regardless of their skill level, and to do so in a supportive and positive atmosphere. Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Samuel Kurtz AS: I am very grateful for the opportunity to talk about this today. I would like to thank you, on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives, for the work that has been done by the Commissioner and others in moving forward with the Commission's official languages scheme. The success of this scheme is very important for attaining the goal of Cymraeg 2050 and protecting the Welsh language for future generations. I am happy to be part of a Senedd that shows how a bilingual workplace can work well, being open and supportive of both Welsh and English.
It was interesting to read in the report how they dealt with the challenges of running a hybrid Senedd. I was also surprised to hear that some of the Senedd Commission staff had worked with Microsoft to test translation on Teams.I strongly believe that we should always continue to learn, regardless of our age or experience. Working with Rannóg an Aistriúcháin, namely the translation service in the Irish Parliament, has been valuable. It not only helps our Irish neighbours, but also gives us good experiences that we can learn from.
I want to repeat what Adam Price said and talk about the numbers in the annual report. It is important to note that the percentage of documents published in Welsh and English has decreased from 7 per cent in 2021-22 to 5 per cent in 2022-2023. Welsh contributions in committee proceedings also fell from 12 per cent to 8 per cent during the last year, which is a big reduction. This was partly because fewer witnesses spoke in Welsh. So, it is very important that speaking Welsh should not be a problem when giving evidence, as it affects the types of evidence that we receive. Unfortunately, the percentage of Welsh contributions has not increased during the last year, which is disappointing. I may have missed it, but when comparing this year's report with last year's, it looks as though they have omitted the number of written questions submitted in Welsh. It fell from 10 per cent to 4 per cent between 2020 and 2022, and I would appreciate it if the Commissioner could tell us the figure for the last reporting period, so that we can keep track of the progress made.
And a highlight—I am pleased to see an increase of 82 per cent in the number of Welsh learners who are using the Commission's Welsh learner scheme. Amid the budgetary pressures, I would like to know how they will ensure that the budget for this scheme will continue to be protected. Also, have there been any changes in the financial numbers since this report was published? I would like to know whether the Commission has specific goals or targets for measuring how well this scheme is doing, as the years go by.
To conclude, I wish to say again that, yes, my party supports the development of the Welsh language in everything that we do in the Senedd, just as I said in the debate on the OLS report last year. Thank you very much.

Heledd Fychan AS: I thank the Commissioner for the update and the report. Clearly, as you've outlined, there are a number of things to be welcomed here, particularly in terms of the numbers of learners and the increase there. But similarly to Sam Kurtz, I do think we need to understand some of the figures and ask why people choose not to use the Welsh language, because it is a choice. We are a bilingual nation. It would be hypocritical for me to say that everyone who speaks Welsh should make every contribution in Welsh, because I don't do that myself. But Welsh is my first language, and I do take pride in the fact that I am here, as a Member of the Welsh Parliament, and am able to use the Welsh language at work, something that isn't possible for many people, although we do try and support them. So, it is very important that we set an example here.
One of the things that I wanted to ask is—. You mention the decline in Welsh-language contributions in committees; it would be interesting to know what the percentage is in terms of how much Members contribute in that regard, and has there been a reduction there, and perhaps some work could be with Members to understand why, because I've seen excellent examples of people using the Welsh language for the first time in committees. For example, Hefin David has often used the Welsh language on the culture committee, and it's been wonderful to see that, that he feels confident and takes that opportunity, and that we can support each other.
So, I think it would be good, not just to monitor, but also to work with committees to try and understand this trend, because, on one committee that I attend, I think I'm the only one who does use the Welsh language and one tends to slip into English then when questioning witnesses and so on. So, I do think that having reports of that kind would be an encouragement for us to use what is available to us and take advantage of those services.
May I also ask in terms of the budgetary side—? I think Sam Kurtz's point is important; we know the challenges facing the Commission in terms of its budget and we also see the success of the investment that there has been in support staff and so on, and the importance too in terms of Welsh-language refreshers, because we know that so many of the Commission staff and support staff perhaps haven't used the Welsh language since leaving school. And it's important that we continue to invest in those skills.
So, whilst looking forward to the target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050 and how we, as a Parliament, can play our part in that as a workplace and also by setting an example, I think it's important that we don't lose sight of the figures contained here and that we do commit to ensuring that we understand why some choose not to use the Welsh language and that we provide support and ensure that the budget remains in place so that the Welsh language is available and belongs to everybody.

I call on Adam Price to reply to the debate.

Adam Price AC: I'm grateful to the Members who have contributed and I welcome the comments made and the suggestions that have been made. And if I could request some patience and some leeway because I've only just been appointed to the post. And therefore, as is traditional to say at points such as this, I will respond to you in writing with a full response. [Laughter.]
But I will try and respond to some of the important points that have been raised. I do think that Sam Kurtz was entirely right in celebrating the innovation that is implicit in the report and in the work of the official languages team, namely this engagement and collaboration with Microsoft in changing software that's used at a global level, based on our bilingualism here in Wales. So, that is certainly something that we should take pride in and I understand that that discussion and that collaboration with Microsoft continues.
In terms of the targets and how we benchmark, if that's the—. I don't think I've created a new Welsh-language term in using the word 'meincnodi'. There are targets within the scheme for the sixth Senedd. They are targets to be achieved by the end of the Senedd term, but, of course, they are kept under constant review and we will report against those targets in due course.
In terms of some of the statistics that aren't contained within this report—they will be laid in the Library—in terms of oral questions, according to the table I have before me here, there's been a slight increase, from 14 per cent to 15 per cent, in terms of oral questions submitted in Welsh. In terms of written questions, it's gone slightly in the other direction, from just 4 per cent to 3 per cent of written questions tabled in Welsh.
Now, in terms of Heledd Fychan's question, we will consider whether we can do a little bit more work on this issue of the use of the Welsh language in committees,because you are quite right:there would be different factors that would explain the barriers for Members, perhaps, as opposed to those who are providing evidence. So, we will do some work to understand exactly what the drivers of this phenomenon are, in order to increase usage on both sides, of course.
And, just briefly, as we are discussing statistics, although the situation in terms of documents produced for committees by the Senedd, the situation there, is quite healthy, the figures in terms of the documents tabled bilingually generally speaking is more concerning. Now, many of those documents are outwith the direct control of the Senedd, because they are provided by Government. But it is important that we, as a Parliament, do hold the Government to account, because that then has an impact on our ability to be a bilingual Parliament if we don't get all documents, including explanatory notes—. Unless we get those in good time in a bilingual format, that impedes our ability to be a truly bilingual institution. So, that is something that we should continue to be concerned about. I'm not sure if I've covered everything, Dirprwy Lywydd, but I see that the clock has turned red. But if I haven't been able to respond to that range of questions, I will write to the Members.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Plaid Cymru Debate: Green energy

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Darren Millar. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected.

Item 6 this afternoon is the Plaid Cymru debate on green energy. I call on Delyth Jewell to move the motion.

Motion NDM8355 Heledd Fychan
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that the outcome of the latest UK auction for offshore wind means there will be no new offshore wind farms developed in Wales for the foreseeable future.
2. Notes that the independent UK-wide Climate Change Committee’s latest report on the progress of the Welsh Government’s decarbonisation agenda concludes that Wales is currently not on track to meet its Net Zero goals by 2050.
3. Notes that a UN report on the Paris Agreement stresses the need for fossil fuel emissions to peak by no later than 2025 to ensure that global warming is limited to 1.5 degrees above pre-industrial levels.
4. Believes that Wales has the potential to be a powerhouse for clean and renewable energy.
5. Believes that this potential is currently being squandered as a result of the policy approaches of the UK and Welsh Governments.
6. Calls on the Welsh Government to develop a new green industrial strategy for Wales to realise its economic potential in green energy and to ensure that progress towards its Net Zero goals is accelerated.

Motion moved.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch. I'd say to start, Dirprwy Lywydd, that, when we tabled the motion for this debate, we hadn't realised just how maddeningly timely it would be. Sunak's decision making in London to row back—[Interruption.]—on key climate policies is a testament of shame. Yes, to the Prime Minister, it is a testament of shame and deep, deep concern. I hope that the Conservatives will reflect on this in their speeches this afternoon. We cannot turn our backs on our planet or we will all perish.
But, to return to the original impetus behind this debate, it is about potential. The infuriating thing about potential is that it's always in the future, always kept at arm's length. It seems that Wales's fate for so many years has been couched in these tantalising terms. We talk about the immense potential for wind and tidal energy, for Wales to become a powerhouse of the future, but the keys to unlock that door are kept on a chain in a closed room hundreds of miles away. That is the infuriating thing: our potential seems never to be realised, at least not under this system. And so, in recent weeks—recent hours, even—we've seen this dynamic play out yet again. The parameters set by Westminster for the offshore wind auction were so unrealistic, so constrained, that there is now no prospect for the foreseeable future of new offshore windfarms being developed in Wales, no means of harnessing our great potential. And this disappointment has come at a time when the Welsh Government has been warned that Wales is not on track to meet our net-zero goals by 2050. Now we've been blown yet more off course.
The time has never been more urgent for us in Wales to develop a new industrial strategy, a green industrial strategy. The devastating job losses at Tata serve to remind us of the real-life consequences of not having such a strategy. And the worrying, disturbing decision by Sunak, the Prime Minister of this Westminster Government, to renege on so many policies makes this all the more urgent too. None of the challenges facing us are remote or at a remove, and our means of dealing with them should not be either.
Because Wales has the potential—that's that word again—the potential to be a powerhouse for clean and renewable energy. So, let's give ourselves the means to do it too. Because, at present, neither the policy approach of Westminster nor of the Government here are making the most of that latent unrealised capacity we could have, the power we could produce. Our coastline is rightly celebrated as a tourist destination, but its beauty need not only be scenic. The Celtic sea could be harnessed to power the future. We could learn from what Ireland is doing across the water. It is facing the future, not the past.

Delyth Jewell AC: Because we are duty bound to our future, to the workers of tomorrow and the workers of today. We must have a green strategy to create green jobs, to show ambition. We have a duty to our children to create a way of working to generate energy, to empower our communities in a way that doesn't endanger our planet, to develop ways of living that can save our communities, that will recognise the dangers and risks of flooding, loss of biodiversity, of pollution in our water and our air.

Delyth Jewell AC: This isn't something we can simply put off, because the planet is burning around us and, in the UN's words, there is a rapidly narrowing window for Governments to move more quickly, since global greenhouse gas emissions have to peak by 2025 at the latest. And it is already so much later than we think. Our oceans are choking in plastic and our children are breathing toxic air. If we are to reach net zero in time—that phrase 'in time', because it doesn't bear thinking about what will happen if we don't do that in time—. But if we do, that will require transformations to be seen in our systems across all sectors, all contexts, including scaling up renewable energy, phasing out fossil fuels, ending deforestation and implementing both supply and demand side measures.
We must have supply chains that reflect our global responsibility, that connect our communities, and which don't allow us to hide our consciences offshore, out of sight, out of mind, a system that empowers consumers to make ethical choices, both businesses and individuals. And we need to invest in skills development, in research, in innovation. But 'must' and 'need' aren't enough. Saying it isn't enough. We are compelled by the climate catastrophe to act, and to act now.

Delyth Jewell AC: It's a cause of great concern that the London-based parties, both the Tories and the Labour Party, are weakening their policies in these areas, driven by fear or a lack of ambition, rather than by determination. Plans were published in August to create more than 100 new oil and gas licences. Westminster intends to make it cheaper to pollute our air here than it is in the rest of Europe, to make it easier to put appalling things into our rivers. And just yesterday we heard that plans to ban petrol vehicles by 2030 are under threat, and there is concern that energy efficiency targets for landlords and measures to reduce traffic may also be under threat. These are grave and very concerning developments.
Solutions won't come from Westminster. Indeed, as we've seen, it's they who are holding us back, but we must ensure that our ability to respond to the climate crisis won't be undermined as a result of these concerning developments.

Delyth Jewell AC: As things stand, energy generation possibilities are shared—. Forgive me. Energy responsibilities are shared between the UK and Welsh Governments, with Westminster holding powers over the oil and gas industry, the electricity industry, including generation, transmission, distribution and supply. The Wales Act 2017 devolved further responsibilities to the Senedd, including licensing and granting consent for onshore oil and gas projects, onshore wind projects and renewable energy projects under 350 MW. In the Climate Change Committee's balanced pathway, 57 per cent of the required emissions reductions they identify between 2020 and 2025 come from sectors particularly dependent on Westminster. That means that their lack of action is all the more maddening for us in Wales, and likewise the UK Government's failure to upgrade our power grid is holding us back, constraining our chance to deploy and develop renewable energy installations, preventing communities from creating closer links between local projects and the areas that they could benefit.
All that potential, again, that's lying stagnant. The infuriating thing always about potential is that it is always in the future, at a remove, but it need not be that way. The full devolution of energy powers is a necessity for our nation's future. Having a comprehensive plan is a necessity to make the transition to our greener future something we can be excited about, and not frightened.

Delyth Jewell AC: We have an opportunity now to benefit our future, to benefit our planet, to benefit the people of Wales, today and tomorrow. And I look forward to hearing the rest of the debate.

I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Congratulates public bodies and businesses in North Wales for their success in securing funding for the largest ever deployment of tidal stream energy technology in Wales through the most recent Contract for Difference Allocation Round 5.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government and UK Government to work together to accelerate deployment of floating offshore wind, including by fully implementing the recommendations of the Offshore Wind Acceleration Taskforce.
3. Acknowledges the establishment of Net Zero Industry Wales and calls on the Welsh Government and the UK Government to work together to support the development of industrial decarbonisation pathways.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) respond urgently to the recommendations in the Climate Change Committee's latest Wales progress report, including to produce plans to deliver a 10% reduction in car-km per person by 2030, to set out a decarbonisation pathway for agriculture, and to accelerate rates of tree planting by removing non-financial barriers.
b) ensure that Ynni Cymru enables communities to play a pivotal role in making Wales a powerhouse for clean and renewable energy.
c) ensure that Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru helps to maximise the economic benefits to Wales of the energy transition by delivering income to the public purse and stimulating Welsh supply chains.
5. Agrees with the findings of the recent UN report on the Technical Dialogue of the first Global Stocktake on the implementation of the Paris Agreement that the worst impacts of climate change can be avoided if all nations follow bold targets with tough action to deliver them.

Amendment 1 moved.

Julie James AC: Formally.

I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendments 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar
Delete point 1 and replace with:
Notes that the latest UK auction for renewable energy contracts resulted in 3.7GW from solar power, onshore wind and tidal power projects UK-wide.

Amendment 3—Darren Millar
Delete point 5 and replace with:
Regrets the withdrawal of business rates grants for small-scale hydroelectric projects by the Welsh Government.

Amendments 2 and 3 moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. And can I just put on record, please, my objections, really, to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom being referred to by his surname? I think we should have a Senedd etiquette that the Prime Minister, whoever he should be, should actually be referred to by his correct name, and he is the Rt Hon Rishi Sunak MP, Prime Minister. I do think the use of somebody's last name—

You have just put that on record, Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. So, the contracts for difference round 5—. Oh, and I have to say it's a bit rich for you to be denigrating the United Kingdom Government when they're way ahead of us in terms of their climate change objectives. [Interruption.]

Janet, your contribution.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'm aware of the news and more will be revealed later. But for now, I am really proud of the progress they've made so far. When you can actually compare your lack of progress to them, then you need to perhaps look more at yourselves.
Now, the contracts for difference round 5 allocation results highlight six exciting key projects for Wales, including Foel Trawsnant windfarm, Anglesey solar park and Ynni Llanw tidal power project. So there are positive outcomes from the bidding round—[Interruption.] There are positive outcomes from the bidding round, including as much as 3.7 GW of solar power, onshore wind and tidal power projects.
However, it remains the case that the Welsh Government are still not on track to meet your own 2050 decarbonisation targets. The Climate Change Committee report highlights that, since 2016, renewable deployment has slowed. Offshore wind capacity increased by 26 per cent in 2015; however, after that it stagnated, with no increase in operational capacity between 2016 and 2020. Operational capacity of onshore wind increased by 12 per cent in 2019 and largely plateaued thereafter. Installation of solar capacity has increased at a slower rate since 2016, and as this report states, the Welsh Government should work more closely as part of a Minister-led infrastructure delivery group, and in conjunction with the new electricity networks commissioner, to ensure enabling initiatives for energy infrastructure are taken forward at pace, and that necessary policy changes are implemented in Wales to deliver a decarbonised and resilient power system by 2035.
I have spoken to Lord Deben myself about the report, and highlighted too my serious concerns about the lack of attention given to the marine environment, which we’ve highlighted in the Welsh Parliament's climate change committee. It is unreasonable to keep pursuing tree planting on agricultural land when we know that marine ecosystems can capture far more carbon per acre than forests. A square metre of sea grass captures triple the equivalent amount from a rainforest and 10 times the amount from grassland. We could do so much more to guide nature restoration and energy production. If only you were to act on our request for a national spatial marine development plan, this would clearly empower this Welsh Parliament to work with stakeholders to decide what goes where.
Similarly, we don’t have a national hydrogen strategy, and I’ve got to be honest, how disappointing with the new Infrastructure (Wales) Bill coming forward that hydrogen isn’t even mentioned. You’ve slashed business rate relief for small, privately owned hydro schemes on our farms in Wales. Welsh Ministers need to introduce measures to encourage these privately owned schemes. You also need to work co-operatively with the UK Government, and we saw that exchange here last week, when you were saying that they hadn't engaged and Huw Irranca-Davies mentioned that there'd been some engagement. We had a letter from the Minister, quite pointedly saying where you hadn't engaged with them, so much so that it led to an apology from you, Minister. [Interruption.]
Now, the Trawsfynydd site has incredible potential to help boost the UK's energy security with Cwmni Egino's proposals for small modular reactor technology. It has exceptional access to grid capacity, so let's work together on that. Eryri National Park could be enhanced as a power park, and we should make the most of the brilliant investments by our UK Government, including £26 million for two free ports, £160 million in ports infrastructure and £500 million in Tata Steel.
Whilst the Conservatives are ensuring that Wales has a world-leading green steel sector, this Welsh Government is indirectly supporting the offshoring of carbon footprints. We need to be realistic that 2050 is a quarter of a century away. We are now in that transition period, and during this transition period—

Janet, you need to conclude now, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —fossil fuels are required, and one way they could do that is to keep the Ffos-y-frân mine open. It is a fact that it holds the best anthracite, esteemed by many across the world. It burns a lot cleaner, yet you're prepared to import from countries like Kazakhstan, and it's dirty coal.

Janet, you've exceeded your time—you need to finish, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'm finishing now. Wales has the potential to be an energy powerhouse, but there is a need for new actions and a need for new determination by the Welsh Government. I implore the Welsh Government, actually, to stop looking about at what the UK Government are doing and just concentrate on what you are responsible for here in Wales. Diolch.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think that it's difficult to follow Janet Finch-Saunders, because there's so much wrong with the analysis, so I will proceed with what I'd already written.
Offshore wind is now cheaper than gas—I mean, that is an extraordinary situation. What it reflects is the absolutely unprecedented and terrifying rise in gas prices, which has left so many households unable to pay their heating bills. Despite this having provoked the steepest fall in living standards since the second world war, we hear Suella Braverman argue that greening our economy will bankrupt it. It's extraordinary. Tragically, we now know that the current Prime Minister is more interested in culture wars to save his skin than the well-being of future generations. I couldn't put it better than Zac Goldsmith:
'His short stint as PM will be remembered as the moment the UK turned its back on the world and on future generations. A moment of shame'.
The Climate Change Committee is shouting from the rooftops that we, collectively—the UK as a whole—are not on course to meet our net-zero commitments. But I can assure Janet Finch-Saunders, if you actually read the Climate Change Committee report, Lord Deben doesn't mince his words, but he's far more excoriating about the UK Government's role than the relatively minor criticisms that he has for Wales.
In that context, any rational Government would have ensured that the subsidy regime for the latest licensing round was sufficient to get bidders for offshore wind, which is not something that community energy operators can do. This is for the big operators; therefore, the subsidy has to be suitably large to whet the appetite of developers, who are going to have to invest large sums of money before they get any return. Instead, the plans for Wales's first floating windfarm, off the coast of Pembrokeshire, are on hold. Blue Gem Wind have simply had to delay any future developments, but they say they're still talking to the UK Government. Well, we'll just have to wait until we get a UK Government that's more rational about this.
But contrast this with the situation in Ireland, where an auction organised by the Irish Government has led to an oversubscription of offshore wind projects, due to deliver a combined capacity of 3 GW, which is a massive leap for Ireland, compared with its single offshore windfarm of 25 MW at the moment. This failure of the UK Government to set the right subsidy levels has really serious implications for the south Wales industrial cluster. We have the second largest industrial cluster in the UK and if we can't deliver clean energy in the quantities they require, these industries will be forced to go elsewhere or die.
In the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee this morning, David Clubb reminded us that Wales needs to increase its renewable energy production by 400 per cent to meet our net-zero obligations. I share Delyth Jewell's frustration that we are simply not taking advantage of the natural resources that we have. We are gifted, we have nine times more wind energy in this country than, say, Germany, simply because of where we are situated geographically, and it's just incredible. We don't have to rely on nuclear, which creates nuclear waste for future generations, or other unproven technologies, like carbon capture, to green our industries and everything else that we rely on through energy generation. The serious lack of any industrial strategy for a just green transition is causing unnecessary anxiety about changes in workforces like Tata. Jobs are being displaced, but there are huge numbers of new jobs that are being created and need to be delivered.
I support amendment 1, because it sets out clearly what we need to do to avoid the disaster of not acting on time. It certainly doesn't give us the luxury of having pseudo-culture wars about a default 20 mph. Far too many households live in transport poverty, spending more than 10 per cent of their income, simply because they don't have other transport options available to them. And bus re-regulation will enable us to take forward reducing car miles per person by 10 per cent, which is in the amendment, and—

Jenny, you need to conclude now, as well, please.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Okay. So, equally, there's a huge amount of work to be done on decarbonising our agriculture, which I will speak about another day.

Cefin Campbell AS: We've already heard this afternoon about the importance of tackling the challenge of climate change. Undoubtedly, this is one of the biggest challenges facing us in the twenty-first century. This is even more relevant in light of the UKGovernment's intention to row back on its decarbonisation targets. This is another example of the Tories doing what is allegedly popular, rather than doing what is right. This irresponsible recklessness should make us even more determined here in Wales to stay true to our commitment to be net zero by 2050, if not sooner.
From the estuary of the river Loughor to the far reaches of the Llŷn peninsula, mid and west Wales are surrounded by the Celtic sea and the Irish sea. I've spoken a number of times in this Chamber before about the unique nature of the coast around the region, and the opportunities that present themselves as a result. But, I have also warned about the way that these opportunities are far too often wasted. Depopulation, poverty, lack of skills and wages below the Welsh average—all are characteristics associated with our coastal communities. It is important to note, of course, that all of those problems have worsened as a result of a decade and more of austerity and cuts to public services by the Tories. But it is also fair to note that the Welsh Government hasn't shown enough ambition either in its support for these communities. It is clear that we must work harder in Wales to make maximise the potential, as Delyth said earlier, for the development of sustainable blue energy.
We do know that floating offshore wind, FLOW, has the capacity to transform energy production, and that west Wales has the ability to be a leader not only in these islands, but across Europe and the world, in the development of this clean energy source. With this comes so many possible opportunities to develop local supply chains, skills and high-paying jobs. In many visits that I've conducted across Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire, I see the potential and have heard communities calling for those opportunities.

Cefin Campbell AS: Dirprwy Lywydd,what we have recently witnessed with the disastrous outcome of the UK Government's offshore wind auction calls uncomfortably into question whether these opportunities will be actualised. It is little short of scandalous that there were no floating offshore wind winners in this year's auction of contracts for difference, including Erebus, Wales's first planned floating windfarm off the coast of Pembrokeshire. But to add insult to injury, and despite the direct impact that this would have had on Wales, the Welsh Government had no involvement in setting the auction price. As we heard yesterday in the context of Tata Steel, once again, the Welsh Government has been completely sidelined by the Tory Westminster Government, which is hellbent on undermining this place at every opportunity. I heard with a great dollop of irony Janet Finch-Saunders's plea for the UK Government and Welsh Government to work together. Speak to your colleagues. It's not happening when it comes to offshore wind energy. Wales cannot be allowed to continue to be a passive bystander in processes that are so vital for our green industrial development. I would ask the Welsh Government what concrete guarantees it can give me that this will not be allowed to happen again.
Before the summer recess, the Senedd passed a Plaid Cymru motion calling for devolution of the Crown Estate. We know that this too is vital for securing Wales's green energy, a made-in-Wales approach on offshore wind energy and the social and community benefits that will flow from it. According to a House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee report, FLOW in the Celtic sea could be worth £20 billion in terms of direct capital investment into the domestic market, with direct investment two or three times more. Introducing a mandatory community ownership criterion for offshore wind developments could provide an opportunity to ensure that Welsh households, community groups and pension funds all benefit from this investment. As it stands, the Welsh Government has no power to insist on this or any other community benefit criteria. So, finally, can I ask the Minister to provide an update on the progress that's been made on ensuring that the considerable investment opportunities represented by FLOW will directly benefit our coastal communities, and that we put a stop to our apparent willingness to persist as an extractive economy?

Altaf Hussain AS: If the events of recent months have taught us anything, it is that climate change is a clear and present danger to our continued existence, with tens of thousands of people killed by flash floods across the Med, temperature records smashed at home and abroad and large parts of the world on fire. Climate experts tell us that these extreme weather events are no longer in the extreme, they are becoming the norm. As the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change’s first global stocktake report highlights, we are not doing enough to limit warming to 1.5 degrees centigrade above pre-industrial levels. We're currently at around 1.2 degrees and we have seen the impact that a warmer global climate is having on our weather systems and life on this planet.
The United Nations report goes on to call for more ambitious mitigation targets. Wales, it seems, is not doing its bit. As the motion before us today notes, the independent UK-wide Climate Change Committee has concluded that Wales is currently not on track to meet its net-zero goals. We have to do better. The Welsh Government pays lip service to net zero but lacks the commitment to achieving it, with failures to plant enough trees and roll out electric vehicle charging points, but worst of all, an abject failure to provide a reliable modern public transport network. The Welsh Government runs the trains and we have the worst-performing network in the UK. They have undermined local bus services while at the same time taken decisions that drive up congestion. We need to decarbonise vehicles, not force people out of their cars. We all know that decarbonisation is a vital and urgent need. And as I have said many times, decarbonisation is a challenge but also a huge opportunity for my region. Yesterday, many Members of the Welsh Government criticised the deal between the UK Government and Tata to move away from virgin steel production at Port Talbot. Using steel scrap instead of virgin ore reduces carbon dioxide emissions by 58 per cent. Using recycled steel to make new steel reduces air pollution by 86 per cent, water use by 40 per cent, and water pollution by 76 per cent.
In Wales, we were early champions of reduce, reuse and recycle, but when it comes to steel, it appears that does not apply. I welcome the injection of £0.5 billion to enable Tata to transition from fossil-fuel-intensive steel production to cleaner, greener production. Sadly, this will mean fewer people working in steel production, but that opens up new opportunities: as we embrace a green industrial revolution, we will need the high-skilled workers from Port Talbot to transition to producing plant and equipment for the region to embrace floating offshore wind, green hydrogen and new grid-scale battery storage. I urge the Welsh Government to work hand in hand with the UK Government to ensure my region is at the forefront of the next industrial revolution, whilst at the same time ensuring we dramatically cut our carbon emissions. Diolch yn fawr.

Luke Fletcher AS: Delyth mentioned how timely this debate is, and we have a bit of breaking news here ourselves, Delyth: the Welsh Conservatives are now completing their journey to emulate Trumpian politics. We’ve heard this all needs to be revealed by the PM. Well, if the leaks are anything to go by, it’s 'Goodnight, Irene' for the UK as a serious place in the world as an investor in the green economy. I think this speaks to the lack of agency as well that we have here in Wales. Unfortunately, as we’ve seen from the negotiations on the decarbonisation of the steelworks in Port Talbot, at present we have very little control or ownership over fulfilling and benefiting from our economic potential. It is a damning indictment of our peripheral position in this union of unequals that the fate of our steel industry is being left in the hands of a UK Government that has shown time and time again its complete disregard for the interests of Wales.
And of course, this is a theme that has echoed throughout our history. During the first industrial revolution, Wales’s wealth of coal, iron and copper was extracted in vast quantities from the south Wales Valleys, from amongst the mountains in the north, and in fact, there is no better example of this than the freight trains that pass through Pencoed: when westbound, they are empty, and when eastbound, they are full. Communities, our communities, that sustained those industries for so long saw—and see—very little of the rewards and have been thrown on the scrapheap, starting with the Thatcher administration, and forgotten since, with decline and poverty now an accepted characteristic for communities that actually drove the wealth of the UK.
The balance of power between the wealth creators and the wealth extractors in this country has always been skewed heavily in the favour of the latter, and I'm afraid that almost a quarter of a century of Welsh Labour in power has done little to address this. Now, we risk seeing the same pattern emerging in relation to the green industrial revolution, as Welsh workers are sold the false dichotomy that implementing new technologies to facilitate the green transition, such as the installation of electric arc furnaces at Port Talbot steelworks, will unavoidably put jobs at risk. We must reject this notion that the green transition in Wales has a trade-off that Welsh workers and communities must bear.
With the relevant powers at our disposal, as well as proactive economic policy on the part of the Welsh Government, the decarbonisation of our heavy industries could become a golden opportunity to transform our communities. A recent study showed that the global green energy sector could be worth upwards of $10 trillion by 2050. Wales could reap the rewards of this green energy boom, but it is vital that we have the tools and the workforce in place now. That's why it would irresponsible for this Government to continue down the same path it has done for the past 25 years when it comes to the economy. Over the past six months alone, we've witnessed the closures of the 2 Sisters site in Llangefni, Avara Foods in Abergavenny, and Biomet in Bridgend. Meanwhile, we continue to suffer low rates of employment and high rates of economic inactivity relative to the rest of the UK.
Now we need a radical change of direction before Wales gets left behind yet again. This should include proactively exploring options to upscale the co-operatised ownership models of our industrial sector, as well as placing an emphasis on upscaling the green skill profile of our workforce. We also need a mission-led style of governance in terms of our engagement with the private sector, to ensure that Welsh SMEs can become active partners in delivering green transition. As such, we also need to look at the Development Bank of Wales, empower it, fund it properly, reform it where needed, to take an active role. This should be underpinned by a new economic development Bill for Wales, with clear targets for translating investments in green energy into substantive productivity gains for our economy.
Our future as a powerhouse of the green industrial revolution is within our grasp, but at present that potential is being squandered as a result of the UK Government's centralisation of decision-making powers and its blasé approach to net zero on the one hand, and the Welsh Government treading water with their economic plans on the other.

Alun Davies AC: It's quite something to be speaking in this debate at the same time as the Prime Minister is trashing the policy in London, and to do so in a way, a day after Parliament has risen for recess, to avoid scrutiny—now this is a Johnsonian school of governance, isn't it? [Interruption.] I'll take an intervention if you wish to. But it's avoiding scrutiny, avoiding accountability, and playing to a gallery of rogues. Here we go.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you for taking the intervention. Would you not agree with me that there are numerous occasions, when we're breaking up for Easter, Christmas, any recess period here, when statements are released one after another, after another and another? Would you not agree with me that that is also to avoid scrutiny here in this Welsh Government?

Alun Davies AC: This is a Parliament, not a Government, remember. Let me tell you this: I've told Ministers in this place that they should be making statements here and not via the media. I've done that time and time again, where necessary. But I do not remember a single occasion in the 16 years that I've been a Member here where a Minister or a First Minister has turned entire Government policy on its head the day that Parliament goes into recess. It's a disgrace, and nobody on the Conservative benches should be seeking to justify that. And this is important. This is important, Janet. I'll say this to all of you decent and good Conservatives: do not become an enabler of the poor and the bad, because the attacks on net-zero policy come from the same school that gave us Brexit and the same school of disinformation that spread all those rumours about conspiracies during COVID. The same people are responsible for it. Do not become their enablers, and do not justify that sort of approach to policy and to politics, because there lies destruction for all of us, whatever party we may represent.
This is important, and I say this to the Minister as she replies to the debate. Now, I've got no doubt at all that she will keep the faith and that she will continue to drive forward this policy in a way that should be happening in London. And she will also, I hope, be making it absolutely clear that our policy will deliver, not just with net-zero responsibilities and targets and objectives that we've set ourselves, but also do so in a way that is fair and that ensures that equality measures are also met, because one of the things that concerns me, and we saw this with the ludicrous decision that Sunak took some months ago to award licences for North sea exploration. That will have no impact on the fuel bills faced by the people of Blaenau Gwent this winter. It won't have any impact next winter either, or in fact the winter after that. Because those licences will take decades to deliver fossil fuels, which then should have been phased out according to the Paris agreement, and which then are subject to the international markets for energy prices. So, what you're actually doing by issuing licences of that sort is ensuring that you lose control of energy supply, that you lose control of your ability to deliver not just green energy, but energy in totality. Not only do you not take back control, something that I've heard enough from your benches, but you lose control of what you've already got. It's a policy that's bad on every level, and there's no Conservative in this place who should be in any way seeking to justify or support that.
But what I want to say to the Minister is this: it would be useful, I think, for all of us if she could outline the role she sees for Ynni Gwyrdd Cymru, the public energy company that we're seeing delivered here in Wales. Because one of the issues that I have is about how we go about meeting our targets, not just the fact that we have targets and we've agreed on what those targets are, but how do we do it? It's important for those of us who are looking at this place from the Heads of the Valleys, shall we say, that everybody shares the responsibility for doing that. The Minister will know there's about half a dozen large-scale applications in my constituency, a relatively small geographical area. It is important that all of us have the same responsibility and that not everybody has over-responsibility, if I can put it in that way. But also that community benefits are addressed. We've seen the exploitation. Luke Fletcher is absolutely right. My constituents witnessed the human cost of energy, the human cost of coal in the past. What we need to be able to do is to ensure that we have community benefit for the communities that host large-scale developments. At the moment we simply don't have, it appears to me, the structures in place to deliver that community benefit, and what I would like us to be able to see is the role for the community, the green energy company that the Welsh Government is establishing—the space for that to happen and then that the development takes place in such a way to ensure the responsibility is shared across the country, but also that the communities that host these larger scale developments have community benefit at a much, much, much higher scale than is currently being proposed. And—

And, Alun, conclude now, please.

Alun Davies AC: I am coming to a conclusion. And by doing so, we have buy-in from community, buy-in from people who host developments, buy-in from the wider national community, and I hope that the sort of running away from responsibility that we're seeing in London today is something that we'll view from a distance, but won't witness in Wales.

Sioned Williams AS: Last week's news about Tata should have sounded a clear alarm about the importance of ensuring that the journey to decarbonisation is one that is inclusive, fair and just. Just transition must be more than just empty words. I agree entirely with Alun Davies in terms of the need to share fairly the developments across the country and among all of our communities that will be able to deliver the green future, because ensuring that we reach net zero is about more than achieving something positive and essential for the planet, it also means achieving something positive and essential for the Welsh economy and our people too.
As we move through the next decade, we will all see significant changes in our daily lives arising from this challenge. But the truth is that thousands of families in my region today face the negative side of that challenge, and it's not acceptable, and it's not inevitable, as we heard from Luke Fletcher. Indeed, it is absolutely essential that we don’t repeat the mistakes of the past, that the unfairness of the past is not repeated, and that the green future is one that brings prosperity and opportunities to the workers of Wales, rather than disempowering and disillusioning them, and leaving them, their families and their communities feeling completely helpless.
Wales was one of the world’s first fossil fuel economies, of course, and it left a permanent mark on our physical and human geography, so that half of the population of Wales today live in the narrow valleys where coal was mined, or in the ports where it was exported to the rest of the world. So, what can we learn from Wales's transition away from the coal industry, as we face another major change in our economy? The lessons are very clear. As a result of the first wave of industrial decline, during the great unemployment of the 1930s, Wales lost a large proportion of its population, from the coalfields in particular. Political conflict accompanied the rapid decline of the 1970s and 1980s, leaving so many people in Wales feeling that their Government in London was against them, and creating a sense of mistrust that continues to this day. National productivity also remains very low by western European standards, with dire knock-on effects for income and wealth, and, of course, health.
Decarbonisation is not a simple process, nor necessarily a fair one, and it will affect different people and communities in different ways. Therefore, we have to achieve this in a way that avoids creating or exacerbating inequalities, avoiding at all costs what so many people in Wales experienced as a result of the last period of great economic change. Indeed, as we've heard this afternoon, we have to use the possibility of transformation to reduce or eliminate these inequalities.
In the case of Tata, the unions say that a better transition to a green future could have been created. For example,by using more than one type of technology to create green steel, by carrying out the transition over a wider period to give workers the opportunity to reskill, so that we don't lose them, as we did in the transition from the coal economy, and that they're part of the transformation rather than a waste product in that process.
We know that huge changes need to happen in Wales in order to achieve the level of ambition that is set out in our targets. The economy must go through seismic changes in our industrial and energy sectors, but we cannot repeat the mistakes of the past. Wales was left behind as we moved away from coal. The plan was not one that had the benefits of Wales and its people at its heart. Rapid decarbonisation must take place in Welsh industries, yes, but we must invest to secure jobs in existing industries, and those that will emerge.
Minister, the Welsh Government must play its part in this. It must make the case for our nation and its needs in discussions with the Westminster Government on the decarbonisation of industry and the transition to renewable energy, in order to ensure that we can maximize the benefits of the transition, rather than paying the price for a green future without feeling the impact of those benefits.
Part of this is to continue to demand the devolution of powers over the Crown Estate, so that we can manage our own resources and accelerate the expansion of Welsh renewable energy. But it also means ensuring that the UK Government provides and attracts investment in our energy system, as we've heard from Cefin Campbell, in our grid, in our ports and in our heavy industries.
The green future presents so many opportunities to ensure social justice, but there is also a risk that it may deepen inequalities, as I've mentioned. It has a huge potential to be a new and sustainable growth engine, a net producer of good green jobs that can contribute significantly to the eradication of poverty. It is the duty of the Governments at both ends of the M4—

Sioned, you must conclude.

Sioned Williams AS: —to plan carefully to ensure a just transition, because without that, there is a very significant risk that we will not achieve a low-carbon, environmentally sustainable economy, which is essential to the well-being of future generations.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I very much welcome the opportunity to respond to this debate today. I share the disappointment expressed in the Plaid Cymru motion, that the most recent contracts for difference allocation round failed to attract a single bidder from the offshore wind sector. I suspect that despite the brave face of the UK Secretary of State, in truth, he was absolutely unable to hide the fact that this is a real setback for what must surely be one of the foremost green industrial opportunities, despite Janet Finch-Saunders's extraordinary attempt to make it sound like a triumph. In fact, I think that this failure showcases the Tory Government's complete and utter failure to grasp any idea of economic investment strategies, their total incompetence in the face of any kind of industrial strategy, and, frankly, the appalling hypocrisy shown by the Government on green issues in general.

Julie James AC: I also share the sentiment in the Plaid Cymrumotion that the evidence continues to build for the need to further accelerate the pace of decarbonisation, and that we should be looking to UN experts, as well as our own climate change committee, to inform our plans. Wales has indeed, as many of the contributors have pointed out, abundant natural advantages, and we need to take full advantage of those natural resources, in order to benefit the people of Wales, as well as to help our planet recover.
Where I do depart, though, from the view expressed by the original motion is that we should content ourselves with a counsel of despair. Such a view does not reflect the momentum we're seeing in Wales gathering behind exactly the kind of changes we need to see. I agree we need to call on all interested parties to do more, but I believe we're in a much stronger position to do that if we acknowledge progress as the basis for doing so. The Government amendment therefore seeks to recast the original motion in a form that I hope all parties in the Senedd feel they can support.
Every party in this Senedd is keen to promote offshore wind as a huge industrial opportunity—[Interruption.] I'm so sorry. I don't know why my watch keeps doing that. There were a series of reasons, many of them obvious before the auctions were concluded, I must say, that the offshore wind opportunities were not grasped in this year's allocation round. The task now is in correcting that for the next round next year, and in doing so, we can avoid there being no offshore windfarms developed in Wales for the foreseeable future, as Plaid Cymru's motion fears. Indeed, the UK Government has brought together its own offshore wind taskforce, and we would support the full implementation of their recommendations. It would be significant, I think, if the Senedd would throw its weight behind that call too, and the Government amendment today proposes that we do that.
The original motion I think also makes a major omission in not highlighting the fantastic success of tidal energy in north Wales. There has never been anything like this scale of tidal stream technology deployed in Wales before, and these things do not happen automatically or easily; they reflect the hard work and determination of a range of partners working together in both the public and private sectors to create the conditions for that to have happened. As Welsh Government, we have been lobbying the UK Government for many years for greater support for tidal stream. Regional political leadership from right across the political spectrum has been instrumental in making this a north Wales success story, and I feel it would be right for the whole Senedd to congratulate that success, in the way the Government amendment proposes. And it is right, of course, that we should aim for the highest possible ambition, as the Paris agreement puts it. In doing so, it is important to highlight those areas that demonstrate how progress can and is being achieved. Tidal stream in north Wales is just such an example. The way in which different partners have come together to play their part, with a bit of positive peer pressure, I think helps to show how we can make greater progress in more areas in future.
Dirprwy Lywydd, there are indeed some siren voices out there who question whether the ending of the UK's contribution to global warming is a desirable goal, and it will be interesting to see what our Prime Minister says later today. The trailers don't seem very reassuring, though, and I was not at all impressed by the sudden embracing of the coal industry by the Conservative Government. Typical, though, of the Conservatives, always decades too late with their embracing of anything even remotely positive. If only you'd embraced the coal industry in the 1980s and not in the 2023s, I think we'd have all been a lot happier. But I think that the arguments put by climate change deniers and people who say that we need to go slower and with much less progress are profoundly misguided and will once again be shown to be on the wrong side of history.
The debate today, just as both the UN global stock take and the Climate Change Committee report emphasise, is really about how can we match ambition with specific actions. We've seen important policy progress on energy in the last 12 months, with announcements on the establishment of Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru and Ynni Cymru—new institutions that will help ensure that the public gain a much greater share of the benefits of the energy transition, as Alun Davies has pointed out. These build on the success of the expansion of renewable energy generation belonging to public bodies, as supported by the Welsh Government energy service, with some public bodies reporting that, last year, they earned income, after running costs, in the hundreds of thousands of pounds from individual installations. These policies are very real and tangible examples of how, by taking action to deliver our ambitious energy goals, with communities, public bodies and businesses working together, we can create immediate benefits for the people and the environment of Wales. And I would urge all Members of the Senedd to express their support for expanding community and public sector energy generation through these policies, and to encourage the public bodies and community groups in their own constituencies and regions to seize the opportunities that these policies help to create.
The CCC committee progress report produced over the summer will be the subject of a detailed Government response before the end of this calendar year. Both the Government and the Senedd will wish to consider the findings of the report very carefully. The challenges set for us by the committee include areas around which there is fierce debate. It would be an important signal of climate leadership if the Senedd were able to forge a working consensus around a set of ambitious actions to address these challenges. The Government amendment doesn't ask Members to agree with the committee's findings—the Government is taking time to consider them and the Senedd will want to too—but the Government amendment does call on Members to support a response to these challenges with some urgency.
I hope Members can give their commitment to identifying those positive actions they would support to deliver against the challenges before us and to secure Wales's place as a global leader in climate action. That does include the energy transition. It also means to curb transport emissions and to create a very significant woodland carbon sink in Wales. I hope that Members will agree that stoking fears, rather than being prepared to make the case for change, will only serve to undermine the good progress that people in Wales have helped to bring about. It is not consistent with the calls made by UN scientists that policymakers have to grasp these challenges rather than focus on the confected conflict and half truths that provide short-term political advantage to the detriment of the long-term interests of the people of Wales.
We as a Government will certainly not be doing that. We will hold fast to our course in the face of the real—

Alun Davies AC: Will you take an intervention?

Julie James AC: I certainly will.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you. I can see she's coming to the end of her remarks; I wanted not to miss it. There are a couple of questions I asked you in my contribution about community benefit and about the intensity of development. I'd be grateful if the Minister, if she can't address those matters this afternoon in her remarks, could write to me and other Members on those issues so that we're able to understand where the Government stands on these things.

Julie James AC: Certainly, Alun. I can answer them right now. We have two companies that have come to pass in Wales. One is a directly-owned state energy developer. The people of Wales will directly own the energy produced from the state-owned energy developer, and will therefore not be confined to the current community benefit regime but will actually directly own the energy. So, we'll be able to directly use the profits from that to improve the energy system in Wales. That's very much part of why we're doing it. It would also give us a seat at the table, of course, in the transmission networks and in the general planning for that.
And in co-operation with Plaid Cymru on Ynni Cymru, we've been able to really accelerate community energy across Wales, with really good engagement from community partners. And as I've already said, many communities are earning hundreds of thousands of pounds, which directly supports their communities. We're very pleased to support those in co-operation with Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement, and Siân Gwenllian and I had a really great visit up in north Wales over the summer to see a community benefiting from just those changes. So, I hope that answers the question, Alun.
But, as I was saying, we will not turn back from our course. I hope all Members will support the Government amendment today and acknowledge the role we have to play in providing the climate leadership communities in Wales are calling on their democratic representatives to provide. This is not a counsel of despair—it is indeed a beacon of hope. Diolch.

I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who has participated in the debate this afternoon.

Delyth Jewell AC: We began with Janet. Janet set our number of the areas where she thinks the Government here should progress further. She referred to Lord Deben. I can only imagine how devastated Lord Deben will be by what he will be hearing as we speak, no doubt, from the head of the UK Government. And on that point, I'll be pleased to refer to the Prime Minister by his full title just as soon as any of the things he does on this area are either right or honourable, because at the moment they are neither. Janet also talked about the need for investing in hydrogen and supporting businesses. I was disturbed, though, to hear about any call for us to keep Ffos-y-fran open, on so many different levels.
Jenny told us about how it would be difficult to follow what had already been said in that, but she reminded us about how offshore wind is cheaper than gas at the moment, and that there is a human cost to this. Jenny said that the head of the UK Government has indeed turned his back on the world, and I share Jenny's frustration so much about what is going on at the moment.

Delyth Jewell AC: Cefin mentioned the difference between what is thought to be 'popular' and what is beneficial to our population—

Delyth Jewell AC: —the differences between populism and supporting the population.

Delyth Jewell AC: He particularly talked about the risk to our coastal communities and the impact that the neglect of the Tories will have on those communities, and he asked what the Government could do—

Delyth Jewell AC: —to put an end to us being always in this position of extractive policies.
Altaf talked about how extreme events in the climate are now becoming the norm—those two extremes. One of the dangers about that phenomenon, I think, is that it allows too many of us to become used to the desperate cries for change, and I'm afraid that, for the head of UK Government, in this case, familiarity with the urgency of the situation has bred contempt. But Altaf has talked as well about the need—. And I really do agree with what Altaf said about supporting workers in a just transition, and that was a theme that was taken up by Luke Fletcher. Luke complained about the lack of urgency, about how this is affecting workers at Tata, how the disregard for workers is an echo of what our communities have been treated with for decades. It was a theme picked up by a number of contributors. Luke talked about how the trains at Pencoed show how extractive the system is, how the wealth leaves the very places that create that wealth.
Alun spoke, I think, at the same time as when Sunak was speaking—I think that he did start on time—and pointed out that the Prime Minister was doing that to avoid scrutiny. Alun laid down a challenge for the Conservatives here: do not become an enabler of the poor and the bad. And Alun asked the Minister about how we will reach targets in a way that benefits communities in the Heads of the Valleys too, and again spoke about the human cost of how energy is being raised again.

Delyth Jewell AC: Sioned reminded us all about the need for the just transition to be more than empty rhetoric. It’s not inevitable—being unjust is not inevitable—but we must empower our communities. Decarbonisation, as Sioned said, is not simple, but we must avoid creating more inequalities.

Delyth Jewell AC: Again, the Minister condemned the UK Government's recent actions in recent minutes. She talked about the projects that deserve our attention and our congratulations, and I share the Minister's concern about the Conservatives' decision to embrace coal—as she said, decades too late. If only they had embraced the coal workers in the 1980s. And I do share the Minister's support for community groups. Of course, I'm very glad that you talked about Ynni Cymru and the important part that will play.
Now, during the time that we've been having this debate there has been another contribution, not in our Chamber, but to this debate nonetheless. Rishi Sunak, with behaviour neither right nor honourable, has reneged on key policies that will make us meaner in all senses. It will make us a mockery, but the cruel joke is on all of us. It's on our planet, which is slowly dying. It's on our children's children, who have no voice here, but whose lives will be curtailed, made harder, less joyful, less beautiful—generations that will judge us on what we do and on what we fail to do. Their eyes are on us now. We should ask ourselves if we'd be able to meet their gaze or if we'd instead avoid it with shame in the knowledge that we condemned them to that fate.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Welsh Conservatives Debate: The health budget

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan, and amendment 2 in the name of Lesley Griffiths. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Item 7 today is the Welsh Conservatives debate, the health budget, and I call on Peter Fox to move the motion.

Motion NDM8356 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the First Minister’s claims that Welsh public services must make cuts due to a £900m shortfall during this financial year.
2. Recognises that the Welsh Government has received record levels of funding from the UK Government in recent years.
3. Regrets that despite the Welsh Government receiving 20 per cent more to spend per person on health in Wales than spending per person on health in England, not all of that funding is being currently being allocated to the Welsh NHS.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure the health budget is protected from any further cuts during the current financial year.

Motion moved.

Peter Fox AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm pleased to open this debate today, and I move the motion in the name of Darren Millar. Deputy Llywydd, I want to begin by recognising that the Welsh Government, like many Governments across the world, is in a challenging position, due in the main to recent global events that have inflated fundamental costs for all.
But the reality is that issues and concerns have been growing way before recent global events such as the war in Ukraine or the pandemic. It has to be said that Wales has been put in a worse position as a result of almost a quarter of a century of Welsh Labour's poor management, decisions and political philosophy. We can see the effect that 25 years of successive Welsh Labour Governments have had, leading to a compounding and negative effect on key services such as our Welsh NHS or our education system—this despite being given record settlements from Westminster. In recent years, Welsh Labour have become complacent with our key services, taking their eye off the ball, leaving things in a precarious state, leading to a situation that required the First Minister to make a public statement that £900 million-worth of cuts would be needed to balance the current year's budget. It saddens me that we have to have such a debate as this in this day and age, but it's not surprising. We have experience of Labour's record on finance and the economy. Let's not forget that, in 2010, the outgoing Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Liam Byrne, wrote the infamous note to the incoming Chief Secretary saying,
'I'm afraid there is no money...good luck.'
Here in Wales, a Labour Deputy Minister eloquently stated, 'We don't know what we're doing on the economy.'

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Peter Fox AS: These examples explain in some way why we are where we are and why we should be concerned. The desire of Welsh Labour to drive forward their suite of pet projects, hatched together with their comrades in Plaid Cymru, has siphoned valuable resources away from public services, services our citizens need and deserve. This was evident yesterday with the statement on the Senedd reform Bill, championed by both Labour and Plaid Cymru, climbing over themselves to seek to spend £120 million or more on politicians in this place—not my figures, but theirs—or the decision last week to invest £33 million in a default 20 mph scheme that will negatively affect our economy to the tune of at least £4.5 billion or more over future years, or the £30 million being spent on a universal basic income pilot, and the list goes on and on.
The fact is that the people of Wales don't want more politicians, they don't want a blanket 20 mph scheme and they don't want UBI or other ill-thought-out initiatives. What they want is a secure health service, a first-class education for their children, a home to call their own, a good job and a career, aspiration and hope for the future. Wales needs more doctors, nurses and teachers; it needs to see businesses thrive and the economy grow.
For years, the Welsh NHS has been breaking all of the wrong records as a direct result of Labour's leadership, and now we are seeing Labour Ministers threatening to cut the health budget again. But this wouldn't be the first time that Labour have looked to cut the NHS budget. The Labour Welsh Government is the only Government in the United Kingdom to have ever cut an NHS budget, and the pigeons are coming home to roost as a result.
Recent statistics show that there are nearly 4,300 staff vacancies within the Welsh NHS, putting further pressure on existing hard-working staff. These positions are having to be filled by agency staff, costing taxpayers in Wales £321 million a year. It is a fact, reported by the Auditor General for Wales, that the Welsh Government receives 20 per cent more to spend per person on health in Wales than spending per person on health in England, but we know that not all of that funding is being allocated to the health service here.
If the Welsh Government had used all of what was given to it for health, the Welsh NHS would have around £1.3 billion extra every year. This would have built resilience and sustainability into our health service. The chronic underfunding is a silent saboteur of the Welsh NHS. Little by little, a career in healthcare has become less and less attractive, leading junior doctors who once saw value in climbing the ladder to become consultants to instead opt for locum work, which provides greater economic stability for them and their families. If even part of that £1.3 billion were spent on our NHS, our health service would not be in the position we are in today, with every single one of our health boards in a dire situation and facing, collectively, £800 million-worth of cuts.
We all know money is tight and Governments across the United Kingdom are having to make difficult choices, but one choice we cannot afford to make is cutting the NHS budget. Our citizens are already suffering and we can't allow things to get worse. I know what is done is done. We have to learn from the past mistakes that Welsh Labour have made and start now to put things right. With our health service in the dire state that it is, Wales cannot afford to see it suffer another series of cuts. So, I would urge Senedd Members today to support our motion and protect the Welsh NHS by ensuring its budget is shielded from any further cuts this financial year. Diolch.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Heledd Fychan
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the First Minister’s claims that Welsh public services must make cuts due to a real terms £900m inflationary shortfall since the spending review in 2021.
2. Believes that Westminster Governments have failed to provide Wales with fair and adequate funding since the dawn of devolution.
3. Regrets the Welsh Government’s failure to foresee and prepare for these financial difficulties.
4. Regrets the lack of opportunities provided to the Senedd by the Welsh Government to scrutinise any proposed cuts.
5. Calls on the Welsh Government to protect funding for all front line services, including the NHS.

Amendment 1moved.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you, Llywydd. I move amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan. Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this debate today. It's fair to say that the NHS is under pressure. There are many reasons for this, and the Minister herself has listed many of them in recent months: the population is ageing; the cost of drugs is increasing significantly; and more illnesses are being identified and more treatments to treat them. Consider that, previously, people would have died sooner or lived in pain, but it's now possible to treat different illnesses and infections, and this, in turn, brings additional financial pressure on the NHS. This is all true and it would be unfair and, indeed, irresponsible not to recognise that. But there are also much more fundamental problems in place that are undermining the ability of the NHS and the excellent staff within that service.
But before going on to those problems, I must take a moment to challenge the claim made in the Conservative motion about the level of health funding in Wales. Yes, there is more money going into the health service in cash terms, but that disregards entirely the raging inflation that we have seen over recent years. The Welsh Government is receiving around £17 billion in its settlement from the Westminster Government this year. When the Conservatives came to power in 2010, Wales saw its block grant fall annually, and only recently has it started to rise again. But, in real terms, taking inflation into account, Wales will receive £3 billion less this year than it received in 2015. Couple that with the unfairness of the Barnett formula and the fact that we are contributing to major projects such as HS2 and others and the fact that we have no control over resources such as the Crown Estate or water, then the picture is entirely clear: Wales is underfunded to the tune of billions of pounds by this corrupt, unequal state.
But that is not to overlook the responsibility of the Government here either. For one thing, whatever the warm words of the First Minister and other members of his Cabinet in Wales, the leader of the opposition in England, Keir Starmer, has not given any commitment to rectify this injustice. And as things stand, this painful inequality will remain under a Starmer-led Government too. But, there is so much more that could and should be done here in Wales.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Ostensibly, this is a debate about our health service, and the health Minister has said many times that people need to take personal responsibility for their health and not add more pressure on what is a clearly creaking health system. But while people obviously need to take responsibility, repeating that line is not only patronising, but it is also denying the true cause of much of the health woes facing our people. Because obesity, diabetes, mental ill health, substance misuse and many other health issues are inherently linked with poverty. Until we tackle that underlying cause by providing people with good, affordable homes, by ensuring that everybody has a basic income in order to have a dignified life, by strengthening the economy through empowering our communities and ensuring that Wales can develop her own economic and fiscal policies, free from the interests of absent billionaires, and developour own sovereign wealth fund to invest in our education and our people, until we do this, then we will always struggle to tackle the chronic ill health that's plaguing our country. That's why the Labour Government here shouldn't be taken off the hook. Their failure to eradicate poverty and strengthen our economy is playing a key role in the health crisis.
Now, interestingly, the Conservatives repeat the line that they want to protect the health budget, without ever mentioning other key front-line services. What about housing? What about the economy? What about local authorities? If you fail to invest in these and other essential projects, then this will have a direct effect on people's health and well-being, ultimately piling more pressure on the health service.
One key service that is too often ignored, and is ignored by the Conservatives in this instance, is the care sector. If we're serious about tackling the health crisis, and I hope that we'll hear the Government today accept that we have a crisis in the health sector, then we need to tackle the issues in the care sector. We need to see far more investment into the care sector in order to tackle the health crisis. Currently, we are far too dependent on an army of voluntary carers who, essentially, keep everything else afloat. But the persistent lack of investment in our care service is contributing directly to the major challenges facing our health service, be that with people repeatedly visiting GPs or delayed transfers of care from hospitals that lead to long ambulance queues and so much more. So, yes, we need to keep the health budget and ensure that our health service receives the funding required in order to tackle the ailments that the people of Wales suffer. But without that investment into the care service, then we'll never be able to tackle those stubborn blockages in the health system.
So, invest in health, yes, but health is so much more than treating illnesses; it's about prevention, it's about people and it's about poverty. Independence, of course, would give us those tools, but until then we need the UK Government to properly fund Wales and give us the money that is due to us and for the Welsh Government to manage those funds better. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for finance to formally move amendment 2.

Amendment 2—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that at the UK Spring Budget, the Welsh Government Budget for 23/24 was worth £900m less than expected at the time of the UK Spending Review in 2021.
2. Regrets the impact on Wales of the mismanagement of the UK economy and public finances by successive UK Conservative governments.
3. Calls on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to invest in public services, including the NHS, and public infrastructure in the Autumn Statement, ensuring Wales receives its fair share of consequential funding.

Amendment 2 moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Formally.

That's formally moved, amendment 2. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Wow, I've got to be honest, I'm astounded that Welsh Labour have the cheek to state that there has been mismanagement of public finances by the UK Conservative Government. [Interruption.] It was, after all, Liam Byrne, the Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury under the Rt Hon Labour Gordon Brown, who left a note for his successor saying,
'I'm afraid there is no money.'

Janet, are you taking an intervention?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Yes, Joyce.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you. When we talk about mismanagement of funds by the Tory Government and the health budget, what about the personal protection equipment scandal that was given? If we had all that money from the PPE scandal, hundreds of millions of pounds, we would have enough money to run a very successful health service and give everything everybody wants that you constantly ask for every week.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Okay, well, if we'd have had a COVID inquiry here in Wales, maybe you could have proved what you're saying. Labour had irresponsibly left the whole country's finances in a mess, and not for the first time. Over the past 12 years, since I was elected here in 2011, we have heard the moans, the whinges, the cries that the UK Government is underfunding Wales, yet it was a Labour Government until 2010 when they were defeated, so you were blaming, actually, the previous Government, and you've continued for the last 12 years.
As part of the journey, thanks to the Conservative Government, Wales is now receiving record levels of funding. And Mabon, it is disingenuous of you to challenge our facts on spending in the health service. We have all witnessed previously where, as a result of the Barnett consequentials, money has been earmarked here for the Welsh Government to come to the health service, only for the Welsh Government to decide not to give it to the health service, instead deciding to spend it on vanity projects. There have been hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Moreover, the Welsh Government continues to receive greater funding allocations than England. Do we have to keep telling you? I tell all my residents if they ever say anything. For every £1 spent on the health service in England, Wales receives £1.20. It's the same for education. Despite this, the Welsh Government was found to be just spending £1.05—[Interruption.] I need to get on now, or else the Llywydd might tell me to—[Laughter.]

[Inaudible.]—now, but it is your call, Janet. So, if you decide not to take interventions, that's perfectly fine.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: The education and Welsh language expenditure group has experienced repeated funding shortfalls by this Welsh Government. As part of the final 2023-24 budget, it received £3.43 billion in funding, resulting in a cash-terms cut of £43 million compared to the year before. Several school governing bodies are contacting me now to warn they can't afford any further cuts. There are headteachers of our schools who are actually on the verge of mental health breakdowns as a result of insufficient and really, really poor engagement in terms of funding. They shouldn't have to make more savings,because increased spending by the UK Government resulted in an additional £115 million in Barnett consequentials for 2023-24. It is scandalous that you’re allowing money received because of the spending on education in England to be allocated to other frivolities here in Wales.
The Minister for education may say he’s taken on board the recommendations by Luke Sibieta in his 2020 review of school spending in Wales, though it is the opposite. The review stated that additional funding was needed in some areas, including deprivation. Welsh Labour are keen to use that word a lot of the time, and I have to say, all the areas in Wales where you see detailed deprivation are represented by Welsh Labour representatives, and that’s a fact.
The Minister said, as a result, they are allocating a further £9 million—[Interruption.] Look at the map of deprivation in Wales. A further £9 million to support our most economically vulnerable learners through the pupil development grant. The £142 million for 2023-24 is over £5 million less than in 2022-23. Simply, the Welsh Government has cut funding for economically vulnerable students; it’s a disgrace. As is the fact that the health and social services expenditure group has continued year-on-year to face real-term reductions: a real-terms cut of £228 million in the 2023-24 final budget, despite the Welsh Government receiving this additional £165 million. A hundred and forty million for adult social care in 2023-24 in Barnett consequentials, a total of £305 million.
The biggest scandal of all, though, is that you’re continuing to waste money: £7.3 million on a failed racetrack, £33 million rolling out 20 mph, £52 million on Cardiff Airport, plus all the hundreds of other money that’s gone on that, and it was only recently valued at very little. A hundred and twenty million on Senedd reform, £157 million on the M4 relief road. There are dozens of other examples. [Interruption.] You are allowing so much cash to be squandered here that, at this rate, there will once again be none left for the services that need it and this is all because of failed leadership by Labour, both when they were in the UK Government and indeed here. Diolch.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate to clarify some more Tory misinformation that’s being spouted. A decade of Tory austerity cuts in public services and unfunded pay awards have left them in a fragile state. In all the graphs, you can see the decline in the NHS across the UK starting in 2010. And you cannot say it’s fine to fund the NHS and then cut social care funding. [Interruption.] One impacts on the other. Yes, Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Would you not agree with me, if you look at those very same graphs, that spending on the health service in England has gone up, and if you look at the graphs for Wales, the spending has gone down?

Carolyn Thomas AS: No, I disagree. Spending on health in Wales has gone up. You’re separating NHS—[Interruption.]
On your second point, what seems an end to austerity in recent years was initially met with relief. However, it wasn’t extra money to pull back fragile services, just enough towards keeping in line with the rising costs and needs. It meant the cuts weren’t as deep, but then we had the Liz Truss budget causing the economy to crash into the black hole of inflationary pressures, leaving councils and other public services—including the NHS—to make tough decisions again about cuts.
The Welsh Government’s budget is worth £900 million less. The energy bill for the NHS last year in Wales was £200 million extra that had to be found. Councils that deliver social healthcare, preventative health and well-being services, as was mentioned earlier, such as access to leisure centres and libraries, social housing, care homes—I’ve just heard today that three more care homes will be closing in one authority in Wales—public protection, youth services and homelessness services are left with funding gaps again. The Welsh Local Government Association is warning that local services could be at mortal risk if further funding to Wales is not forthcoming from Westminster. [Interruption.] Do you want me to take an intervention, Sam?

Sam Rowlands AS: Certainly, yes.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Okay.

Sam Rowlands AS: Thank you for that.I assume you recognise, Carolyn, that all the items you just put out there are the responsibility of the Welsh Government.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Yes, I do accept that, but when funding to Wales for public services is cut, year on year, then you have no choice, do you?
Councillor Anthony Hunt, who's the WLGA spokesperson for finance and resources, only last week said that day in, day out people in all parts of Wales depend on lifeline council services and councils are facing an estimated £600 million to £750 million of pressures in 2024-25 alone. Ninety per cent of the Welsh Government's budget goes on public services. The loss to these council services would create a devastating blow to communities at a time when they're needed most, amidst the ongoing cost-of-living crisis caused by the Tory Government. People across Wales will ultimately pay the price if the UK Government fails to urgently provide funding to the Welsh Government to pass on to local government. And capital funding from the UK Government to improve our NHS buildings and increase services has also been cut in real terms. The formula of spending for Wales should be more. It was widely recognised when we were part of the European Union, when Wales were net beneficiaries, receiving £79 more per head. That funding has not been replaced.
Wales has the largest population of older people in the UK. In Wales, 21 per cent of the population is aged 65 or older. At the UK level, it's 19 per cent. Wales is more sparsely populated and has a history of industry that's caused health problems. It needs more money. Wales spends 8 per cent more on health per person than England, and 43 per cent more on personal social services per person than England. Wales pays the real living wage to all NHS workers. Wales has announced a bigger programme for new spending on digital transformation for health and social care than England, on a per-head basis—over £60 a head in Wales, compared to around £38 per head in England. We have proportionately more doctors and hospital beds than England. The Welsh Government are increasing the number of nurses and midwives, and have increased training funding by 8 per cent. We still have bursaries in Wales. Car parking is free. Prescriptions are free. And we have community pharmacists. In north Wales, we have a new medical school, a dental academy, and more training places. The Conservatives are just playing with words and statistics, as they always do in their misinformation.
Health professionals understand that we must invest in social care and public services, as Mabon ap Gwynfor mentioned earlier, as well as the NHS. You cannot separate them. It's needed, because under the Tories the rich are getting richer and the poorer are getting poorer, which all impacts on health and well-being for everybody.

Gareth Davies AS: I'm pleased to take part in this debate this afternoon. It's all very rich, isn't it, for the Welsh Government and Plaid to point their finger down the M4 and blame the Conservatives in Westminster for all of their shortcomings and failings, but don't be fooled by this rhetoric, I'd advise you. Yes, they're very well rehearsed at their phrases, but don't let that convince you. It is this Welsh Labour Government that has been in charge of health since devolution in 1999. Wales is the very country that receives £1.20 for every £1 spent in England, but somehow has been the only nation to cut a health budget not once but twice. You couldn't make that up.

Heledd Fychan AS: Will you accept an intervention?

Gareth Davies AS: Yes, I will, Heledd. Yes, please do.

Heledd Fychan AS: Do you accept that we are underfunded, that there is a £3 billion shortfall in real terms, like Mabon ap Gwynfor outlined—

Gareth Davies AS: I've just mentioned it. Weren't you listening? I said £1.20 for every £1 spent—

Heledd Fychan AS: So, you accept that. What are you doing to ensure that Wales gets its fair share?

Gareth Davies AS: I'm here as a Member of the Seneddtrying to convince the Welsh Government to invest more in health services in my constituency, as I'll point to later in my contribution.
But it's okay to blow millions of pounds on 36 more politicians in Cardiff Bay and impose the blanket 20 mph policy, against the wishes of the majority of the people of Wales. All I would simply say to that is put these decisions to a referendum and see how well you get on. But we're here to talk about health, and as the Member of the Senedd for the Vale of Clwyd, with Glan Clwyd Hospital in my constituency, I get a bit nervous in reading the news and seeing debates about potential cuts. I get nervous because I see, on a daily basis, the issues my constituents raise with me about waiting times in accident and emergency, reports of failings in vascular services, and all the issues I speak about that we all know about.
I had the opportunity to visit the A&E department in an official capacity over the summer recess to see for myself some of the issues in response to the ongoing complaints over waiting times and the general performance of the health board. The one thing that everyone can agree on, from every persuasion that you can think of, to cut waiting times in Denbighshire and relieve pressure on A&E, is to build a north Denbighshire community hospital at Royal Alexandra in Rhyl. I know myself, and colleagues have raised this quite regularly, but it's true. It was supposed to be the answer to all of the current health problems in Rhyl, Prestatyn and surrounding areas, where the minor injuries unit would cater for the—[Interruption.] Yes, please do, Joyce.

Joyce Watson AC: I'd like to know which part of the £1 million that you've given us as a capital settlement this year you think will build that hospital. If you can find somebody to build it for £1 million, I'm sure the Welsh Government will come aboard and build it.

Gareth Davies AS: You want to stick 36 more politicians in this place, which would cost a lot more than north Denbighshire community hospital ever would. So when Ministers respond to me saying that this can't be delivered and there's no money for it, and blame the Tories down in Westminster, that's why my constituents reject this notion. They reject it because they see millions being spent on more politicians in Cardiff, they see the amount of money it costs to change the road signs from 30 to 20, and, like I mentioned, all of that could have been delivered for north Denbighshire community hospital. So, you could go as far as saying, to argue, that decisions being made here in Cardiff Bay are having a detrimental impact on the health prospects of the people of Denbighshire, because promises made to build the hospital in Rhyl have been shelved for more politicians and a blanket 20 mph limit. It's a case of priorities, and the Welsh Government have all of theirs in the wrong place. And I heard Rhun there talking about deprivation in Rhyl. Let me tell you about the realities of the situation in Rhyl: Rhyl Town Council, Labour run; Denbighshire County Council, Labour run—

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Who's the Senedd Member?

Gareth Davies AS: The Member of the Senedd? For 26 years, Labour. The MP for the Vale of Clwyd, for the best part of 20 years, Labour. The Government here in Cardiff, where you call for more devolution, Labour. That's the reality of the situation in Rhyl, and that's the reason why my constituents elected me, because they're sick and tired of the same old policies and the same old rhetoric coming from Cardiff Bay. I would just urge Ministers to go back to the drawing board and start delivering on the real priorities for my constituents in the Vale of Clwyd and across Wales, as the Welsh NHS is on its knees and needs robust leadership rather than an established blame culture from Labour Ministers and Plaid Cymru. I'd urge you to support this motion this evening. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan AS: I can't say that I'm pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate today, because it's a very strange debate at the moment.

Heledd Fychan AS: If you look at the title of the debate, it's a debate about the health budget, but I think, as was revealed when Peter Fox presented the motion, it's turned into a debate that's actually just to talk Wales down, and not something that any of us would want to see, to be honest. Because I'm really disappointed. I'm sorry, but Janet Finch-Saunders's comments implying that no-one lives in poverty in a Conservative area in Wales—how well do you know your constituency? Because the truth is that every constituency suffers from poverty and has suffered from poverty for decades. It is something that, unfortunately, we all share, even those of us with affluent areas—all of us share this situation in terms of poverty. And as Mabon ap Gwynfor powerfully outlined, we understand those links between poverty and health, hence why I'm always disappointed that we have a future generations Act in Wales, but many of the Government's budgets remain to work in silos. If we are serious about improving the health of people and tackling poverty, then every budget has to work together. [Interruption.] You refused my intervention, so please let me continue.
I would like to see, as we reflect on what's needed for Wales, an acknowledgement, which there's been from Gareth, that there has been a real-terms cut in terms of our budget. We're agreed as a Senedd that we're underfunded, that we should receive that £6 billion as a result of HS2. Some of the things that have been referenced don't add up close to £1 billion, let alone the £9 billion we've identified here. So, let's talk about why we're in this situation. And can we not just point the finger and say, 'You should be doing this, you should be doing that', rather than uniting to ensure that Wales gets its fair share of funding, so that we can properly invest in the services that are required? All of us—all of us—I'm sure receive daily casework relating to health, and what constituents will see, if they are looking at this debate today and seeing this on the agenda, the health budget, is, 'What are they fighting for? Are they fighting for me, the patient that's been waiting months, years, to be seen?'—for a number of different reasons: the staff, who are completely stressed, those that have been leaving because they just can't cope anymore, because they're seeing patients dying. How is this debate solving that? Sometimes, I think we go for the easy headlines here, whereas, actually, what I'm interested in is solutions, and how we safeguard both the future of our—[Interruption.] Yes, I'm happy to.

Tom Giffard AS: Thank you. You talked a lot about the problems in the health service, and I understand the problems that you mentioned, but can you explain why your co-operation agreement with the Labour Party didn't make any mention at all about the health service?

Heledd Fychan AS: Because we have different policies, and the areas of co-operation are ones where we could find agreement, hence why it's a co-operation agreement. We're not in Government, and we also hold the Government to account in terms of health. That's why we would like to see greater scrutiny and better policy, which is why we agree with expanding the Senedd.
But what we are looking at here, and where we would be holding the Government to account, is, as has been emphasised by the recent Audit Wales report finding that six of the seven major health boards failed to break even during the latest three-year period, in violation of their statutory duties, the fact that every major health board in Wales is currently under some form of targeted governmental intervention. Surely that's a damning indictment of the Welsh Government's escalation framework. I would urge that we actually look to work together, fight for the funding that Wales needs and deserves, so that our services are properly funded. That's within the control of the Welsh Conservatives, and also Welsh Labour, if there is a change of Government at the next Westminster election. We can't play politics with people's lives. Health is the most crucial aspect. But, as we've heard both from Mabon ap Gwynfor and Carolyn Thomas, they're all interlinked in terms of things like social care, housing and so on. We cannot look at budgets in isolation, and we can't play politics with people's lives.

Joel James AS: The Welsh Labour Government has only one tune on their tired and, frankly, outdated stereo system: 'It's someone else's fault.' Every week, we listen to the same excuses peddled by the Government, and sometimes their rather boisterous backbenchers, expressing the view that the UK Government is solely to blame for every woe in Wales. Not only is this tired, but the mask is slipping. The Welsh public are fed up with the fact that this Government spends a considerable amount of their working week finding excuses as to why they haven't done anything, rather than actually doing the work that they're paid to do.
What baffles me, Llywydd, is that the Welsh Government is complaining about a £900 million shortfall in this year's budget because of inflation, yet at no point does it seem that anyone in this Government has put any plans in place to account for inflationary pressures. It's almost as if they do not have any understanding whatsoever that inflation can change rapidly, and that good governance is having a financial plan in place that accounts for this.
What is also tiring to hear, Llywydd, is how the Welsh Government is so insular in its outlook that it can only blame the Conservative UK Government for every issue or problem that it faces. Presumably, this is a narrative—

Rhianon Passmore AC: Will you take an intervention, Joel?

Joel James AS: Go on, then, as long as you wait for the mike to come on.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Do you not see any interconnectivity between the relationship and the union of the devolved nations with the UK Government and the interplay of the fact that we rely, vastly, majoritively, on the UK Treasury for what comes into Wales, and that's been depleted?

Joel James AS: With your indulgence, it's all at the end of my speech, so thank you.
So, the UK Government, for every issue or problem it faces—. Presumably, this is a narrative that they're being encouraged to make by their trade union paymasters, who are wasting no opportunity whatsoever in trying to bring down and undermine this UK Government.
There is a problem, Llywydd, because the Welsh Labour Government completely refuse to take any responsibility for the problems they face through their own mismanagement. It is worrying that not a single person in the Welsh Labour Government can comprehend that inflation in the UK is the result of global pressures, due to the COVID pandemic, the Russian invasion of Ukraine, changes in energy supply, such as Europe moving away from Russian oil and gas, and the effects of policy changes by the US federal bank on global currencies. This means that they are not giving any consideration whatsoever to influences outside of their control and putting appropriate plans in place.
What also worries me—and I'm sure it worries many people living in Wales—is that the Welsh Government have either squandered money on vanity projects or failed to sufficiently spend huge amounts of additional grant funding, which has now meant that the resilience of the Welsh NHS is severely weakened. If the Welsh Government had spent all the money given to them by the UK Government during the COVID pandemic, instead of underspending by £155 million, it would now mean that waiting lists in Wales could have been much lower and that our hospitals and medical services would not be under so much pressure now and in the years ahead. The fact that Wales still has £504 million-worth of EU funding to spend by the end of 2023, the fact that £40 million has been spent on 20 mph road signs, and that over £135 million was spent on an M4 relief road project that never saw the light of day, and even £16 million on a kung fu centre in north Wales just highlights to everyone that this Welsh Government can neither use taxpayers' money wisely nor effectively. And if they spent this money wisely when it had it, then they would not be in the state of absolute panic that they are in now and would not have to make cuts to vital services.
As the Deputy Minister for Climate Change pointed out—as my colleague Peter Fox did earlier—the Welsh Labour Government don't really know what they're doing on the economy and have just pretended for the last 20 years, and this is why Wales is suffering from a lack of resilience and why the Welsh NHS and the health of the people of Wales have to bear the brunt of this Government's ineptitude. The Welsh Government have received record levels of funding from the UK Government in recent years, and the people of Wales deserve much better financial management than it currently receives from Welsh Labour Government.
And to answer Rhianon Passmore's question now: the union dividend in Wales is worth over £4,400 per person each year, and it is incredible to believe that the Welsh Government still cannot make the finances in Wales work to such an extent that Wales has been left behind by all other UK nations. The fact that it allows local authorities to sit on a staggering £2.75 billion-worth of unspent reserves, when some people are struggling with day-to-day bills, beggars belief. After 23 years, Wales is clearly still in the position of having little to no resilience against inflation. The Welsh Government clearly have no plans in place to deal with anything that is outside of their control, and the Welsh NHS and the health of the nation should not have to pay for this.
This is why, Llywydd, I urge everyone here to support the motion raised by Darren Millar and vote against the Welsh Government cutting our health budget in this current financial year. Thank you.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I met with the chief executive of the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, Nicola Prygodzicz, this week to discuss the very real issues revolving around healthcare in Gwent and, actually, across the UK. The Aneurin Bevan University Health Board stated publicly that their deficit has been driven primarily by rising costs over the last few years. Indeed, large inflation hikes and serious acuity of patients' conditions, post COVID, presenting, including theatre times, combined with increased real need and demand from patients across Wales for NHS services, and also scalic, rising market prices—we can't ignore inflation—and high drugs costs. But also, equally, high unfunded pay costs, which the UK Government is not providing for the workforce of our NHS and the people of Wales. And the Welsh extra resources we are using to catch up on waiting times, following the disruption caused by the pandemic, is real.
So, colleagues, let us be utterly frank. We do live, as I've said earlier, in a union of nations in the United Kingdom—that is the people's choice—and the main Westminster Government with its hands—we'll call them that—on the economic levers of power for 13 long years has been under Tory control and, I would say, misrule, with now five Conservative Prime Ministers. Thirteen years of chaotic, I'd even say manic Tory austerity, and Tory so-called leadership has dramatically impacted on what devolved health services can deliver.
Yet, let's look at what the Welsh NHS has delivered, and these are the facts and not the fiction that is so often peddled by those opposite. Wales spends 8 per cent more on health per person than England. That's a fact. That's £3,459 for Wales versus £3,192 for England, and I'm very happy to take an intervention because that's UK Government data. Wales has proportionally more GPs than England and Wales, and is increasing further the number of nurses and midwives, and we've increased that funding by 8 per cent. Wales has considerably more hospital beds than England relative to the size of our population. [Interruption.] These are Government figures—UK.
Figures from 2020-21 show that the Welsh health service had around 270 general hospital beds for 100,000 people compared to 170 in England. And Wales is building, apparently, six times the number of new hospitals compared to England, if we use the same definition as the Conservatives around a new hospital. That's an interesting one. Indeed, if we use the very same UK Tory Government criteria for Wales, we actually have 14 new hospitals, based on schemes that completed by 2019 and those that are currently planned to be completed by 2030. So, let's be honest—we don't need smoke and mirrors. The public don't need smoke and mirrors. The Tories in Westminster have promised 40 new hospitals, but on 33 of these, I will remind you, work is still pending. So, let's take into account the respective populations—we in Waleshave more than six times the number of new hospitals than England.
Llywydd, I want to end my contribution with another Welsh NHS success story in Gwent. Healthcare Inspectorate Wales completed an unannounced inspection at the Grange University Hospital's maternity unit between 6 and 8 June, and the hospital was praised for its excellence in maternity care in the unit. So, whilst others continuously seek to talk down our national health service, which actually talks down Wales, for their own, for your own political objectives, we can see front-line high performance—[Interruption.]—I've almost finished—from our dedicated NHS staff across Wales. And those staff are our true Welsh gold. They are our treasure and they are our workforce. And what our Welsh NHS needs now more than ever is a Labour UK Government, a UK Govenmernt that will work with us and that will ensure that the UK financial resources are dedicated—dedicated—to meeting the needs of every corner of the United Kingdom, the needs of our NHS family and the needs of the Welsh people. And that means pay not platitudes.

The Minister for Finance and Local Government to respond to the debate—Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch, Llywydd. In responding to today's debate, I welcome the opportunity to again put on record the role that the UK Conservative Government has played in mismanaging the public finances of our country, which has directly led to the budget challenges that we face here in Wales, challenges that I know are being felt across the whole of the UK and, of course, these challenges are impacting on the health service here in Wales.
The Senedd will be aware that the Welsh Government's budget is worth £900 million less than when it was first set in 2020-21. It's worth £2 billion less than if it had grown in line with gross domestic product since 2010. High levels of inflation continue to put huge pressure on all areas of Welsh Government spending, whether that's our revenue spending on services, pay and people, or capital spending on physical infrastructure such as hospitals. And the UK Government is continuing to squeeze funding next year. Our budget is lower in real terms next year than this year, and the forecasts for the period after 2024-25 are very worrying.
I was very clear last year, when we set this year's budget, that it was a budget for hard times, and we are living in those hard times. And sadly, the hard times and hard choices facing Wales will continue for some time yet. This is all down to the UK Conservative Government's mismanagement of our economy and public finances, and it's down to the political choices made by countless Conservative Ministers to constrain public spending. The impact of this is that we are going to have to reduce spending in some areas to meet key pressures in other areas. Cabinet continues to grapple with incredibly difficult choices regarding the areas that we will continue to fund. Core front-line public services must be a priority for this Welsh Labour Government, and this is why we’re doing what we can to continue to support the health service in Wales.
Funding for health and social care has always been the top priority for this Welsh Government, and we’ve consistently prioritised health and social care in our budget, despite the challenges our budget has faced. Spending per head in Wales is higher because the need to spend in Wales is higher. We have an older population, we have higher levels of ill health and economic inactivity, partly as a legacy of our industrial past. Wales is also a more rural nation, and it simply costs us more to deliver services and to meet the demands of people in communities here than it does in other parts of the UK.
The funding level for Wales is a direct result of the operation of the Barnett formula, and it’s based on the needs of our population. It’s not based on the generosity of the UK Government, and Conservatives would do well to remember that, particularly since the responsibility for decades of entrenched poverty in Wales lies at their door. [Interruption.] In a moment. The fact that the Welsh Conservatives begrudge the needs element of the Barnett formula is absolutely staggering. Having listened to the contributions from these benches this afternoon, it is clear that it is begrudged. I would expect that from Conservatives in Westminster, but it’s absolutely staggering coming from the Conservative benches in the Senedd.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you, Minister. I just wanted to raise that, obviously, we're comparing a lot of systems here between Wales and England, but would you say it was your priority to work with the UK Government to factor in cross-border health provisions, when you look at the fact that people in north-east Wales use services in Cheshire, the Wirral, Merseyside, and likewise, as you go down the country, in Shropshire, Hereford et cetera? Can some of those contributions that you're making in your response factor in those realities—that people in England use Welsh NHS services and likewise Welsh people rely a lot on the English health system as well?

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, and that's actually a correct statement, because I know there is a fact that more people from England come to Wales to use GPs here in Wales than go in the other direction, and I do think it is important to have constructive discussions across Governments, so I've got no issue with that.
As I said last week, I'll be making a statement on the cross-Government work to reallocate budgets as soon as the exercise that I described is complete, having given proper regard, of course, to the impact of the choices that we're considering, and including those cumulative impacts. So, I hope to say something further to the Senedd on this next month.
But our work is not enough alone. The UK Tory Government must also play its part. So, I yet again call on the Chancellor to invest in public services, in the NHS, in public infrastructure, in his autumn statement on 22 November. The UK Government can't continue to starve public services of the funding that they so desperately need, with all of the implications that that has for people in Wales.
We won't be taking any lessons from the Tories, the party that inflicted more than a decade of austerity on public services, a political choice that has weakened our services. And this is the party that introduced the bedroom tax, imposed sanctions on jobseekers, cut the benefits of disabled people—the party that has given us soaring inflation, rising mortgage bills, and has forced families to choose between heating and eating, whilst time and time again it puts millionaires first. It's time for the Conservatives to stop misleading people and to recognise that Wales is in fact seriously underfunded.
This Labour Government is doing all it can to support people and communities in Wales and it's time for the Welsh Conservatives to do the same. And I say this to the Welsh Conservatives: try being Welsh first, Conservatives second. They should work with us, not against us. They should be influencing their colleagues in Whitehall to ensure fairer funding for Wales and ensure that our vital public services, such as the NHS, are not left behind.

Russell George to reply to the debate.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer, I'm pleased to close this debate in the Senedd today. To start, I thought Peter was fair, Peter Fox was fair, in his opening comments in recognising, of course, that the Welsh Government, like many Governments around the world, are in a challenging position, and the Minister touched on that as well. But the subject of our motion today is that it is with regret that the Government has cut the health budget in real terms, and it's not the first time, of course, that this Government has cut the health budget in real terms. These are decisions made here in Wales, not in Westminster. We know that the UK Government has protected the health budget in real terms in England, and no modern Conservative Government has cut a health budget in real terms. These are decisions that are made here in Wales.
I will concentrate on some of the other contributions today. There are some aspects of Mabon ap Gwynfor's contribution, of course, that I will agree with. I agree with the need to address the issues of lifting people out of poverty; I agree with the importance of encouraging home ownership and encouraging aspirations in home ownership and building more houses; I agree that, when it comes to the health of Wales, it's not all about the health budget—I agree with those points. I think another point that Mabon made as well is in regard to prevention, and I think that there are prevention programmes that are successful in Wales and I very much hope that the Government won't look to cut some of those prevention programmes.
There was a lot of discussion in this debate today around health spend—Janet Finch-Saunders, Gareth Davies and other Members as well. But what Janet pointed out is—and others pointed out—that, for every £1 spent on devolved areas, whether it's education or whether it's health, Wales receives that uplift of 20 per cent; Wales receives £1.20. The Minister talks about championing and standing up for Wales. I will always champion and stand up for Wales and my constituency. If there are any other mechanisms for additional spend, then I will be championing those—I do for levelling-up. If there are other mechanisms, I will champion additional money for additional spend.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Will you take an intervention?

Russell George AC: In a moment. But what I will dispute is the fact that Wales, in receiving that 20 per cent uplift, is unfairly penalised by the UK Government.

Darren Millar AC: Would you take an intervention?

Russell George AC: I'll take two interventions; I'll take Rhianon's first and then Darren Millar's, if that's okay, Presiding Officer.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you. In regard to standing up for Wales, do you not understand that there is any agency for you to be able to petition the UK Government to say that we don't have enough money coming into Wales? Is that not part of your mandate?

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for taking the intervention. Just on that latter point, of course, we have petitioned the UK Government in respect of the Barnett consequential for HS2, for example, on these benches and we'll continue to be able to do that. But do you agree with me, Russell George, that the deal that was struck—the £1.20 for every £1—which was struck by the current First Minister, who was the former finance Minister at that time—was based on the needs of the people of Wales, and the First Minister welcomed it as a good deal?

Russell George AC: I thank Rhianon Passmore for her intervention, and Darren Millar has addressed those points, and, of course, I agree with the points that Darren Millar makes. I think it's important to also recognise that Wales is receiving a record £18 billion settlement annually, which continues to increase. The Welsh Government is receiving an additional £2.1 billion over the next two years.
Now, it's interesting, with other contributions to this debate today—Carolyn Thomas was almost listing off a series of errors and concerns that we have in Wales, but seemed not to recognise that these were issues that were the devolved responsibility of the Welsh Government. The issues you raise are the responsibility of the Welsh Government; I think nearly every one you detailed was the responsibility of the Welsh Government. [Interruption.] Yes.

Carolyn Thomas AS: This goes back to funding, and the funding has been cut during 10 years of austerity from the UK Government. Then we've had inflationary pressures that have not been covered, so any funding has gone into a black hole—no pay awards either—so all that has an impact on all public services, whether it's council services or the NHS—totally unfunded.

Russell George AC: Well, I think the comments that I've already made and Darren Millar made address those comments, Carolyn Thomas. But with power comes responsibility, and that's the point that I was making. You can't have it both ways. You can't say, when something good is happening in Wales, it is down to the Welsh Government and, when there are issues in Wales, you point to Westminster. That's not responsibility and that's not the responsibility that devolution brings.
I will perhaps finish my contribution in terms of why I think it is important that the health budget is protected in Wales. It's because we've got that much direr a position when it comes to health services in Wales. I would have thought—. People are asking me to champion funding for Wales; I would have thought that the Minister should be at the table with her Cabinet colleagues, championing an increased health budget for Wales, because that is exactly what—[Interruption.] The Minister said she does do that; there we are. There we are. But I think what is important here is looking at some of the details of why we need to have a protected health budget in Wales. We know that, at the moment, two-year waits—two-year waits at the moment, the current statistics tell us that 28,331 people are waiting for over two years for treatment. That's 28,000 people. The same figure in England is 277 people—277—and you can do the maths yourselves, when you factor in the increased population of England compared to Wales. So, that is exactly why it is wrong to cut the health budget in real terms in Wales and that's why the health budget should be protected.
The NHS—. This isn't all—. And I will accept this as well; this isn't all about cash, this is also about better management as well, and better management of our workforce. We have had a Labour Government for 25 years in Wales. I think Rhianon Passmore pointed out that there's been a UK Government for 13 years; we've had a Labour Government for 25 years in Wales. During that time, successive Labour Governments have not adequately brought forward an adequate workforce plan. Rhianon Passmore talks about more doctors, more nurses—actually, the Welsh Government don't know how many nurse vacancies we have in Wales. The RCN have worked it out; it's actually 3,000 nurse vacancies across Wales. I think—

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Will you take an intervention?

Russell George AC: Yes, absolutely, yes.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Just very, very briefly, do you not see how depressing this is for the people of Wales? You've got blue pointing the finger at red, red pointing the finger at blue, and all the while the people of Wales are suffering from poor health? Will you not—[Interruption.] Will one of you—[Interruption.] Will one of you not take responsibility and stand up and sort the health service out and fund the health services properly?

Russell George AC: With the greatest of respect, Mabon, I think, if anyone listens back to this debate today, they will see green pointing at blue and green pointing at red, as well as the other issues you've outlined as well. Is it not important that this is an opposition debate that is scrutinising the Government? It seems like you're saying that you can scrutinise the Government, but you don't want us to scrutinise the Government, which seems—

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Take responsibility. You're clearly not.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Put us in Government, we'll take responsibility.

Russell George AC: I can't have a two-way debate, otherwise the Presiding Officer will be calling me out. But I'm going to end our debate today by saying that what the Welsh people expect is a Welsh Government that prioritises the Welsh NHS and the people of Wales. I don't think that's what we have now. The Welsh Government's top priority, with a sharp focus, should be on our Welsh NHS and that's not the case at the moment; the Welsh Government's priorities are elsewhere.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Emergency Question: Net Zero

The next item will be the emergency question that I have agreed to. The question is to be asked by Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Will the Minister make a statement on how Wales’ net-zero commitments will be impacted by the recent announcement from the UK Government that they are considering delaying the ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars until 2035? (EQ0011)

Julie James AC: Diolch, Delyth. I will need to consider the Prime Minister's statement more fully prior to making a more substantive response, but the evidence is very clear: the earlier we act to deliver net zero, the lower the cost to business and communities and the greater the economic, social and environmental benefit we will all realise.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Weinidog. Rishi Sunak's decision to weaken key climate policies is an affront to our shared future, an attempt not to rewrite history so much as to unwrite the future, to prevent it from coming into being. He is willing to throw our progress on the bonfire in pursuit of these narrow electoral gains, and we will all get burnt and scarred in that process. So, I'd ask the Minister further what assessment she's made of the impact of UK Government's reported intention that's been laid out on the Welsh automotive industry? What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government about this intention prior to today's announcement? I can guess what that answer might be. How does the Welsh Government plan to offset any negative impact of this abandonment of key climate policies? Finally, does she share my alarm and my horror that a battleground is being made out of policies that are a necessity for our survival as a species on this planet?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Delyth. What's really clear is that any change of this scale requires proper consultation and discussion to both understand the policy and to understand the impacts. We've seen absolutely no evidence to suggest that these changes will make any difference at all to the cost-of-living crisis. We believe other progressive measures, like a social tariff for energy, would, in fact, make a much fairer and more immediate difference to those under financial pressure.
I can tell you, since Janet Finch-Saunders quoted Lord Deben earlier, that Lord Deben has a view on it. He says that they are 'stupid actions' and a 'statement of the failure of government'. He said:
'This is not swapping one policy for another in order to get to net zero, it’s a question of going back on your word, which itself is extremely dangerous'.
'These were pledges committed and they are necessary to reach net zero by 2050, which is a statutory requirement, so the government will be in the courts',
he concluded. So, Janet, if you happen to meet Lord Deben again, perhaps you'd like to get him to say that to you.
What's quite clear, Delyth, is that we need, if we're to have an industrial revolution based on a green vision for the future, an industrial strategy for investment based on that, certainty for the market, certainty for investors, including from an individual householder right up to the manufacturers of heat pumps and all of the issues that go with that. We need certainty for people and for our businesses and for our communities.
I've had a brief look at the statement that was made. Amongst the many things that he appears to be rowing back on is recycling itself. So, I have this to say to that: the English Government has been appalling at recycling, and a Government that has been appalling at something that then decides that it doesn't have a target anymore speaks for itself. This is the action of a desperate Prime Minister, desperately clinging to power he neither deserves nor earned.

Jenny Rathbone AC: On Monday, the chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders told their conference that a failure to convince mainstream buyers to switch to battery-powered models would make it much harder for the UK to meet its net-zero goals. Imagine how car manufacturers and traders feel today after Rishi Sunak's decision to defer this for a further five years. Imagine how Vauxhall and Tata feel about their commitment to invest in car battery production given the change in these goalposts. We know that businesses like certainty when making investment decisions. This is completely as you would expect. They need to be confident that the assumptions they're making today are based on firm foundations. So, Lord Deben points out that Rishi Sunakhas gone back on his word, and this seems to be similar to the disastrous Liz Truss mini budget. What can the Welsh Government do in this situation to rectify the damage done today to our claim to want to lead the world on green transition when businesses are going to be completely spooked by this UK Government decision?

Julie James AC: Yes, Jenny,that's absolutely right, and I'll just quote to you from the Government's own Skidmore review, 'Mission Zero'. He said that
'net zero is the economic opportunity of the 21st century. The evidence presented to the Review has shown that the pace of recent change has created a rush of economic opportunity at a massive, global scale.'
'We must act decisively to seize the opportunities in a global race.'
So, that's the Government's own Tory net zero Minister speaking only a few weeks ago, before the Prime Minister absolutely reversed the policies today.
There's been a series of comments from industry right across Britain saying that what they need is certainty, investment and competence, and from this Government we have none. It's too early for us to be able to say what the effect on our policies will be, but I can assure you this Government provides both certainty and investment, and a vision for a green future for Wales where we can be at the front of the global race. This is incompetence of the first order and, frankly, I am appalled.

Jane Dodds AS: I've just got a very brief intervention, if that's all right, Minister. The world is on fire and we have to do everything we can. The world cannot wait. I've heard some comments from the Conservative benches; I do hope somebody from the Conservative benches will be speaking on this, because I would like to hear their views on this particular announcement. But to hear this really important commitment being pushed back five years creates both uncertainty and, for our planet, means that we still are not in a place, nor will we be getting to a place, where we can truly address the climate emergency. So, I really hope that we can impress on our colleagues on the Conservative benches how important it is for you to take back—. You’ve talked about how you’ve taken some other things back to your colleagues in London, and I certainly hear that and am grateful for that, but let’s not get into what we had earlier. Let’s just work together. This is about us saving the planet, really, and about the next generation. I do hope that we can hear from you today that you will take back the concerns of the people of Wales—[Interruption.]—if you want to make an intervention, Mr Millar, please do—that you will take back from the people of Wales that we don’t think this is acceptable, that even pushing it back by five years is going to mean that there will be continual pushing back all the time.

I'm going to have to ask the Conservatives to be quiet and allow the question to continue, and if the Conservatives wish to ask a question or contribute to this question, they can do. You can put your name forward.

Darren Millar AC: Can I raise a point of order, Llywydd?

Yes, amuse me.

Darren Millar AC: As a point of order, I thought that when emergency questions were tabled, they were questions that were tabled to the Welsh Government Ministers to respond to.

Yes, and the Conservatives are more than able to contribute to that questioning should you choose to do so. But I have no Conservative names in front of me.

Darren Millar AC: There was a lengthy debate on this subject matter this afternoon, to which Janet Finch-Saunders ably responded.

I have taken—. I will be calling Samuel Kurtz to contribute to the question. Jane Dodds to continue.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you so much. So, I would ask the Minister what your thoughts are at the moment of really trying to address this issue with the UK Government, and your colleagues in the UK Government, to impress on them the concerns we have here across many of our benches around pushing back this target. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Jane. The real tragedy of today's announcement is that we have been working closely with the UK Government on developing plans for the zero-emission vehicle mandate, including a four-nations joint public consultation on the plans, and plans to introduce the legislation across the Senedd, Scottish and UK Parliaments, and significant engagement with industry. Now, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change sought assurances from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for roads and local transport that the mandate proposals wouldn't be diluted or delayed as recently as the four-nations transport inter-ministerial group on 13 September, which is only a week ago. So, what's quite clear is that the Government's own Ministers had absolutely no idea that this announcement was coming, nor of what it means. I have to say I was myself discussing very recently the deposit-return scheme and the extended producer responsibility scheme with the Ministers there, who quite clearly did not know that Mr Sunak was about to row back on all of their commitments on recycling. So, it's very hard to answer the question immediately, Jane. We will be looking in some depth at the announcement and what it means for us. But, rest assured, we will be both holding the UK Government to account and we will be making sure that our own mission to get to net zero by 2050 is not derailed by this ridiculous announcement.

Alun Davies AC: This, of course, is populist politics at its very worst. It's the dog whistle of politics. It is a desperate last chance for a desperate Prime Minister and a desperate Government, and I've said to the Conservatives before and I'll say it again, don't be enablers of this populism, because that will bring not only you, but politics into the gutter. We've seen it before with Conservative voices adding credence to conspiracy theories and abuse on social media—don't go there and don't allow your colleagues to go there. It's the responsibility of every single one of you.
Minister, you've answered the question I had about consultation with the Welsh Government and with others about this announcement this afternoon. It's very clear that the UK Government doesn't really care about the United Kingdom. It cares about staying in power and will do whatever it takes to do that. And the reason, of course, they want to stop the movement across to a clean future, clean energy, is because they get funding from the fossil fuel companies. That's what they're interest is in it. Whenever you look for a reason behind a Conservative decision, follow the money—follow the money. They've corrupted Government and they're corrupting our politics. Would it be possible, Minister—and I see the First Minister is in his place this afternoon—for the Government to bring forward an urgent statement on Tuesday so that we can ask questions about these matters, because it will be important?
I and James Evans in Brussels two weeks ago sat through the confirmation hearing of Iliana Ivanova, the Bulgarian EU commissioner for innovation and research, and she was talking about how the EU are going to be driving forward on research and innovation and net zero. Now, of course, since the agreement on Horizon, our research capacity is going to be largely driven by those EU decisions. The failure of the UK Government to do anything different is a failure of historic proportions, and so what we need to do is to understand what the immediate implications are for policy in terms of the environment, in terms of net zero, in terms of climate, in terms of the economy and in terms of innovation. But we also need then to understand the longer term consequences of thisr both the Government of Wales and the people of Wales.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Alun. I think we can bring forward a statement next week subject to the Llywydd being agreeable to that, and I'm certainly very happy to do that. We will have a chance to have some analysis of the announcements. Just as you say, and I'll just quote you the ex-environment Minister, who quit his post in June, who said this as a result of the announcement:
'Putting aside the ethics or even merits surrounding the issue, it is difficult to exaggerate the political stupidity of this economically and ecologically illiterate decision by the PM.'
So, that's from a Conservative ex-Minister. So, I would say to the benches opposite: it isn't necessary to slavishly follow the party line—quite a few of your colleagues aren't, because if you actually do believe in net zero and in doing something about climate change, now would be the chance to stand out from the crowd.

Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Diolch, Llywydd, and I'm very happy to be called by you, when I wasn't expecting to be called this evening and to speak on this topic, and I'm grateful to Jane Dodds for making the call for a Welsh Conservative. But I think there needs to be a little bit of context put into this. The UK has reduced emissions faster than any other major economy—[Interruption.] The UK's share of global emissions has fallen—

I do want to hear the Welsh Conservatives on this question. Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Diolch, Llywydd. The UK's share of global emissions has fallen below 1 per cent. The UK is committed to reducing emissions faster than every other major economy—Germany, the EU, France, Australia, USA, Japan, Russia, New Zealand and Canada. Let's not forget, as well, that when the Member for Blaenau Gwent talks about Horizon and our links with the European Union, and making sure that we are at the forefront of that research, with whom are we aligning our policy on electric vehicles by delaying it by five years? We are aligning it with the European Union. Minister, wouldn't you agree that the people that you and we all represent, those poorest people would have been those who are hit hardest by an overaccelerated move towards net zero, and, by delaying it by five years, it's those poorest people who are going to be supported the most?

Julie James AC: Well, I suppose I shouldn't be disappointed—I can see your lines arrived just in the nick of time there—but what you said is absolute nonsense. Might I commend—? Well, I know you're reading it off Conservative Party central lines, but that doesn't make it true, unfortunately. Might I commend you to read the Government's own Climate Change Committee's report on where it thinks the UK Government is? It paints a slightly different picture to the one you're seeking to present. And might I also say this to you, and I mean this very sincerely: do you understand the basis of global economics? Because going first means you get a first-mover advantage. It means that you get the investment. It means that you get the jobs.It means that you get all of the benefits from the transition. Going slow means that you end up as a client state, always in receipt of others' innovation. That is not where we wish to be, even if it's where you do.

Joyce Watson AC: Unlike my colleague for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, I'm not going to be an apologist for the Tory Party for rolling back on their promises. I would like to see some of them actually stand by the power of their conviction, instead of waiting for a text message that you've just read, or some other message that you've just read, in order to shore up a failing Government. The people of your constituency and my constituency expect a bit better than that of you.
But what I want to ask you, Minister, is, if they can do a complete u-turn on something like this, the same u-turn that they've done in terms of the environmental policies that they've rolled back, what else can we expect from them, maybe next week or the week after? Are they actually going to put the money that they've now promised to Tata, or is that going to be withdrawn next week? Because the problem here is the one that you've just described, Minister: if we can't give guarantees, Government guarantees, to businesses, then those businesses start withdrawing—there is no confidence. We know that most of the nation don't have confidence in the Tories anyway because they can't manage the economy—they've crashed it. But they risk now crashing the businesses that were going to invest here—the good work that has been done by you, the good work that has also been done by recent visits by several Ministers to ask businesses to invest in Wales. So, when you give your statement next week, Minister, can I ask that you look at the widest possible implications of this constant twisting-and-turning, ducking-and-diving Tory Government?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Joyce. Sadly, the worst thing you can do for business is this kind of ducking and diving, shifting around. We know that, when the Conservatives withdrew the feed-in tariffs, for example, they killed the nascent solar panel industry in Wales. We know that trust was really hard to build back. We know that every single time you do a u-turn without consideration of the proper ramifications of that policy, you kill another part of the industry that you might have built up. We know that the UK, and Wales in particular, has a wealth of natural resources that could be exploited for the benefit of its people, in a way that protects the planet as well. The Conservatives have, while spouting the world-class nonsense that they talk about, failed at every point. No contract-for-difference bid from a floating wind company. That's all you need to know about your industrial strategy—it has failed. And this is the action of a Prime Minister absolutely desperate to cling on to power, who has moved the dial down the road until he knows he won't be in power, so he won't have to make the hard decisions, and a Conservative Government that simply cannot stand up to the plate and do anything that isn't for the benefit of their own millionaire frontbench. Diolch.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Minister, you mentioned the independent climate change commission, and let's remind ourselves, instead of just trotting out lines to take from party HQ, of what the commission said earlier this year. They said that the UK has lost its clear global leadership position on climate action. So, under this Conservative Government, the UK not only has gone from being a global leader to mid-table mediocrity, but today we see that the slide down the league continues. Now, I get that there's a cost to tackling climate change, and I get that we need to protect those who are least able to afford some of the changes that might be necessary as best we can. But I also get, of course, that there'll be an even greater cost if we kick the can down the road—more extreme weather events, more stress on failing infrastructure, requiring, of course, a steeper, more expensive trajectory of action as time runs out. Now, I also get that improving, for example, energy efficiency in homes creates jobs, it reduces carbon emissions. It also means warmer homes, reducing ill-health in our population. So, it's good for the economy, it's good for the environment, and it's good for people. But would you agree, Minister, that that lot over there are only interested in what's good for them?

Julie James AC: Well, indeed, Llyr. Sadly, I would agree with that. We know that we have many companies in Wales gearing up for the air-source and ground-source heat pump revolution. This will have put them into chaos. They will no longer know what their order book looks like. We've had several other examples of this sort, where we have companies that gear up for an investment that's then ripped away by an insufficient, inadequate or, frankly, missing policy. We know that the Welsh Government needs to do more to get ourselves back onto the straight pathway for CCC, but we know that we need the UK Government to step up to the plate in terms of investment.
I haven't yet fully understood the announcement today, but we need, for example, serious investment in greening the grid and in extending the transmission lines. Does this announcement mean that won't happen as well? It's impossible to say. We know that the Government in England has now said that they are no longer wedded to recycling. Recycling. I mean, goodness me, I've got Samuel Kurtz trying to tell me you're world class and you're telling me you're not even going to recycle. I mean, this is beyond farce. I feel, Llywydd, slightly as if I'm in an episode of The Thick of It, where the opposition has been replaced by a set of comedians.

Thank you, Minister, for answering the questions.

8. Voting Time

The next item will be voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to the votes. So, the first votes this evening are on item 6, the Plaid Cymru debate on green energy. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 40 against. The motion is not agreed.

Item 6. Plaid Cymru debate - Green energy. Motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 12, Against: 40, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. Open the vote on amendment 1. The vote is tied. In favour 26, no abstentions, 26 against, and therefore I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment, which confirms that the amendment is not agreed, with 26 in favour, 27 against. So, the amendment is not agreed.

Item 6. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 26, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2 is next, in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 38 against. Amendment 2 is not agreed.

Item 6. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 14, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Amendment 3 is next. Open the vote on amendment 3, in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 38 against, and amendment 3 is not agreed.

Item 6. Plaid Cymru debate. Amendment 3, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 14, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Therefore, the motion and the amendments to the motion have not been agreed, and nothing is therefore agreed under item 6.
We move now to item 7 in terms of voting, and the Welsh Conservative debate on the health budget. I call for vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate - The health budget. Motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar: For: 14, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. And if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Open the vote on amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 40 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

Item 7. Welsh Conservatives debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 12, Against: 40, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on amendment 2 in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

Item 7. Welsh Conservatives debate. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 38, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

So, the final vote will be on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM8356 as amended
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that at the UK Spring Budget, the Welsh Government Budget for 23/24 was worth £900m less than expected at the time of the UK Spending Review in 2021.
2. Regrets the impact on Wales of the mismanagement of the UK economy and public finances by successive UK Conservative governments.
3. Calls on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to invest in public services, including the NHS, and public infrastructure in the Autumn Statement, ensuring Wales receives its fair share of consequential funding.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions, 15 against. And therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate - The health budget. Motion as amended: For: 37, Against: 15, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

And that concludes voting time, and brings our proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:21.

QNR

Questions to the Economy Minister

Huw Irranca-Davies: How is the Minister working with the Minister for Education and Welsh Language to support colleges and students to participate in the World Skills programme?

Vaughan Gething: Our team Wales approach to skills has led us to medal-winning success both nationally and internationally. We have amassed 132 medals and medallions of excellence over the last two years alone.

Mark Isherwood: How does the Minister assess the wider impact of Welsh Government legislation on small businesses in North Wales?

Vaughan Gething: We are a responsible Government. We monitor our policies to ensure we deliver a sustainable future for Wales. We engage with businesses and partners, which allows me to gain insight into the effects of policies, which is then fed to respective legislative areas. This sits alongside any formal relevant monitoring.

John Griffiths: How is the Welsh Government supporting workers affected by the Wilko store-closure announcement?

Vaughan Gething: This is extremely disappointing news, which will be deeply concerning for staff at Wilko. We are working with a range of partners, including Working Wales and Jobcentre Plus to support those affected, through programmes such as ReAct+.

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Sian Gwenllian: Will the Minister provide an update on fertility and IVF services available to residents in Arfon?

Eluned Morgan: Fertility services are available across the three main hospitals in north Wales, providing investigations to determine if there is a specific cause of infertility. Patients who meet the access criteria are entitled to two NHS cycles of IVF treatment, with services being available up to a woman’s forty-third birthday.

Vikki Howells: What assessment has the Minister made of the provision of ophthalmology services in Cynon Valley?

Eluned Morgan: It is the responsibility of Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board to make an assessment of ophthalmology services in Cynon Valley. The Welsh Government’s role is to direct the NHS to deliver the standards we expect and then hold them to account for their delivery against these standards.

Peter Fox: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve stroke care?

Eluned Morgan: Welsh Government is working closely with the stroke programme team to develop anoutcome-focused service specification for stroke. This will underpin the quality statement, outline standards for stroke care, support local planning and drive improvements for stroke services. Emphasis is on stroke prevention, rehabilitation and the outcomes that matter to people.

Sam Rowlands: What assessment has the Minister made of the role of allied health professionals in neo-natal care?

Eluned Morgan: The chief allied health professions adviser and chief midwifery officer have met and are working collaboratively with the all-Wales neonatal AHPs forum. They have written to Health Education and Improvement Wales to ensure that AHPs are included in the perinatal workforce planning currently under way.